Thoughts

[rynne]

Public, as I want opinions, and not just from people on my flist.

So. I was just rereading a few fics, namely thistlerose's Midnight Conversation #6, copperbadge's Alive, lupercali's Seven Things That Didn't Happen At Hogwarts On Valentine's Day, Or Maybe They Did and a myriad of other fics, and I was thinking, and I noticed something that they all have in common.

They all have Sirius more in love with Remus than Remus is with Sirius.

Like in "Alive", Sam writes, "Remus had never felt so entirely tied up in a single person, the way Sirius had been. He had loved Sirius, of course he had loved Sirius, but his happiness and his life had not been dependent on Sirius loving him."

MC#6 is pretty much about how Sirius loves Remus more than Remus loves him (at that time).

Seventh year of "Seven Things..." also seems to be pretty much that, as is Pru's Levityverse.

I've also gotten that same impression from a few of musesfool's fics.

Four of the most highly-respected authors (at least according to me) in the R/S subfandom have the same sort of theme on how the R/S relationship works. And, I was just wondering why. Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled? Something along those lines?

All opinions are very much appreciated. Especially if they turn into debates :).

Comments

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled?

You know, I think that, yes, that's exactly what it is. So I can't really go starting any debates for you, but I do think you've got the right idea about it. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Ah, but being controlled does not mean that Remus can't love Sirius just as much as Sirius loves him, it just means that Remus isn't going to be shouting it to the world and all that. That's why I'm hesitant about thinking it's for that reason. Control doesn't stop emotions, after all, it just helps hide them.

[jurhael.livejournal.com]

They love each other equally, it's just shown in different ways.

"Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled? Something along those lines?"

Yup. That pretty much sums it up.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, I rather like to think that they love each other equally, but so many fics portray Sirius as loving Remus more, and I was wondering why. And the thing that bothers me about the whole passion vs control thing is that control doesn't stop passion, it just hides it--Remus can be just as passionate about Sirius, but doesn't show it. It's just that these fics show Remus as not having that passion about Sirius that Sirius has about him.

[pinkfinity.livejournal.com]

Before OOTP, I didn't see as many of this kind of relationship, but since then I've felt it makes a lot of sense,because it's easy to read OOTP as giving the reason for Sirius to leave his home - and thaat reason is Remus. He loves a half-blood and that's bad enough in his home, but a half-blood werewolf? How could he stay in that house in such misery? But his love for Remus has to be enough that he'd leave everything behind for him.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But then why can't Remus still love Sirius just as much?

And it's not like Sirius was leaving all that much behind--material possessions, certainly, and the respect of his family, but he doesn't appear to want his family's respect, and material possessions are unimportant compared with people. And Sirius was going to James--a far better life. Hardly leaving everything behind when he's going forward into something better.

my ramble

[randomalia.livejournal.com]

I think I tend to see it as based in their different natures. Sirius is, to me, defined very much by his love. Its where his great sense of loyalty comes from, imo (hence the dog form), which drives his actions. He almost seems to need someone to dedicate himself to, in life. Which is why it seems wholly natural - and inevitable - for him to have found romantic love from that very insular and close group of James, Peter, Remus, and why it is so fundamental to him.

Remus, on the other hand, seems to need the friendship more, if that makes sense. I always have this feeling about Remus like he's waiting for the other shoe to drop, or tensing himself for the hit. I wouldn't say he loved Sirius less, but that perhaps if he could only have Sirius as a friend, he would take it, because he understands what its like to be without friends. He doesn't need a person to dedicate himself to to have meaning/satisfaction the way Sirius seems to.

So in that way, it seems natural for Sirius to give himself over completely, while Remus sort of loves him while being careful.

Re: my ramble

[rynne.livejournal.com]

So in that way, it seems natural for Sirius to give himself over completely, while Remus sort of loves him while being careful.

I agree about that, and that Remus would be satisfied with friendship if that's all he could get, but then I think Sirius would too. And before Harry was born, Sirius could devote himself to MWP, and afterwards to Harry--in fact, he's still devoted to Harry, and more than he is to Remus. I don't think Sirius really had many friends pre-Hogwarts, as I don't think he'd like the kind of people his parents would want him to be friends with, so he knows the value of friends just as much as Remus does, especially if he was ostracized at first in Gryffindor for being a Black, which some people seem to think. And especially after the Prank, he would know that any of Remus's love that he got would not be unconditional, though as Sirius is more inherently careless and reckless than Remus is, he most likely wouldn't be thinking about that.

About Remus loving him while being careful...I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Another commenter suggested that he kept part of himself back to avoid being hurt--do you mean something like that?

Btw, how'd you find this post? I'm just curious :).

Hmmmm

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

For me, I think Remus HAS to be in control of his emotions. Not only is he a half blood, but he's half werewolf, a double whammy given to him,(since pure bloods look down on both muggleborns and half bloods).

Lupin made a choice long ago to be in control of his emotions. He's had to be in control of his werewolf emotions for so long, I'm not surprised that it seeped over to his "normal" side.

Even though I know that Snape's potion helps Lupin remember who he is when he's a werewolf, I don't think it's JUST the potion that makes Lupin calm in that state, it's Lupin himself that makes him calm in his own mind.


I see Lupin as an insecure person who doesn't like expressing anger.The perfect example of that was in OoTP when James and Sirius were being gits to Snape, and Lupin did nothing(although the slight frown on his face showed his disapproval of what his two friends were about to do).

I know this seems strange, but I really do think that Harry and Lupin are going to get closer in the next 2 books. I don't know how to describe it, but I see Harry being the key to Lupin finally opening up to someone. If he can love Harry as Sirius did, he can love and appreciate himself a bit more.

I don't know if that makes sense, and I'm babbling. haha.

Veela

Re: Hmmmm

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Remus isn't in control or doesn't have to be in control. He's probably the most controlled person in the series. What I'm wondering is how that control leads to him not loving Sirius as much as Sirius loves him, or at least as some people have implied is so.

I hope that Remus and Harry get closer in the next two books. After all, Remus is the only one left who can really tell Harry was his father was liked, especially without Snape's bias against James.

[ashesofautumn.livejournal.com]

I disagree with that imbalance. I think they are equally in love with one another, however they choose to show it in their separate ways. My opinion on whether or not it's because Remus is "controlled" and Sirius passionate is immaterial, since I don't see the relationship's dynamics in that way.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

My opinion on whether or not it's because Remus is "controlled" and Sirius passionate is immaterial, since I don't see the relationship's dynamics in that way.

Oh, neither do I, really. But I know that many people do, or at least seem to, as evidenced by their writing that very thing, and I was wondering what led them to that sort of assumption.

[devkel.livejournal.com]

I agree that a lot of fics give the impression that Sirius loves Remus more. I don't exactly know why -- maybe you're right in that Sirius is portrayed as more passionate in canon whereas Remus is more controlled.

If that's the case, then I find it really interesting that authors took that little glimpse into the characters and turned it into the particular dynamic that we're beginning to see so much of in fandom. Personally, I feel (and I try to incorporate it into my own fics) that it makes even more sense for them to love each other equally -- just in their own ways.

Sirius, to me, seems like that kind of guy that could get completely wrapped up in a person and be really loud and forward in his feelings. Remus I think would be more reserved, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's any less intense.

Hmm, interesting. Well, you definitely gave me something to think about! =)

--
devyn

[canicula12.livejournal.com]

YES that's exactly what I think of them, too! (I don't know why I'm posting this, but I really, really agree with you.)

[neatokates.livejournal.com]

Please excuse me if I'm repeating anything or if I confuse fanon with canon...it's so hard to tell the difference now. ^_^

Now, we don't know much about Remus, really. We know that he was bitten when he was young, his parents tried to find a cure, he was a prefect, and so on.

Maybe there's just some sense in the fanon that Remus has lost a lot during his life, even before Halloween '81. He lost a normal childhood when he was bitten, for one. And, in OotP, Sirius makes it quite clear the Remus was "the good boy" and "got the badge", so then why is James Head Boy? And let us not forget the imfamous Prank... What more has happened that hasn't been explicitly stated?

The wonderful thistlerose has hinted to this in her latest R/S arc...just look at what is happening to Remus' father. Many other fics have Remus with only one parent (divorce, usually, although death is popular as well).

So, to get to my point already, maybe Remus is just too afraid to let himself get close to anything or anyone, namely Sirius, because he fears they will be taken away. And, of course, this was re-affirmed on Halloween '81.

Personally, I prefer fics where there's equal love. But this is just a theory. I hope this was somewhat understandable. ^_^

right!

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

So, to get to my point already, maybe Remus is just too afraid to let himself get close to anything or anyone, namely Sirius, because he fears they will be taken away. And, of course, this was re-affirmed on Halloween '81.

Exactly! I don't think that Sirius loved Remus more or vice versa, but I do believe that the background of Lupin's life story, has a lot to do with how his character is written by fan fic writers.

Lupin is more logical than emotional, the death of Sirius is a perfect example of how Lupin is able to take a situation, no matter how dire, and think logically.

That's why I think Harry will be the one to make Lupin finally show the love he's been hiding for so long. Harry and Lupin have both lost someone they love, Sirius.

I think that love will bring them together.

[tinitinytina.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the other replies, so forgive me for being repetitive. Here's my take of:

Remus grew up as a child knowing that he was a werewolf, and he knew how the Wizarding World treats his "kind." There's no substantial canon proof, but he probably grew up reserved because he figured no one would want to be friends with him. Wouldn't you, if you knew that 9.5 out of every 10 person you meet would hate you and ostracize you for something you have absolutely no control over?

With that thought in mind, I think it became second nature for him to distant himself from others. He never told his friends about his werewolf self, and if James and Sirius hadn't figured it out, he probably would have kept on blinding them. Even with his deepest friend, he's scared and distant.

Therefore, I think he grew up forcing himself to be self-dependent, and it would be too much to ask him to break out of his cold shell. Certainly, he is the most sensitive of the three (my take), and he's intelligent, calm, and logical, but he's less passionate. He's imbalanced more on the head side than the heart side of the scale whereas James and Sirius are the opposite. I'm not saying they're not just as intelligent, but the latter two are more likely to do something out of passionate feelings than Remus are.

With that in mind, I find it quite logical for Remus to be in love but not passion. (It's also kind of how I see myself).

Take Remus' personality and throw in Sirius' love-starved childhood, and you've got what you have. Despite what Sirius would want people to think, he is extremely passionate, and he needs love even more than most people. Oh sure, he's Hogwarts' greatest trouble-maker, but his tendency to fly into rages show just how deep he feels when he does allow himself to feel.

^^;; Did I just manage to bore you with my rambling nonsense?

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I agree with your take on the characters, but it doesn't really explain how Sirius would be more in love with Remus than Remus is with Sirius. Remus can still be very much in love with Sirius without being as passionate about it as Sirius is. Quieter love doesn't necessarily mean weaker love, after all, though I wonder if that's one of the reasons some people seem to think Sirius loves Remus more--Remus being more quiet is certainly the reason some seem to think him somewhat feminine (>.<).

[immortalis.livejournal.com]

I originally started to read all the other comments, but decided I wanted mine to be unbiased. Heh.

For a while, fandom was always trying to make Remus out to be a girl with a penis. He was always crying, always a virgin, always a bottom, always submissive, always shy and nervous, always So In Love with a Sirius who was more masculine than Superman after ten shots of testosterone mixed with tequila. I personally enjoyed seeing a Remus who wasn't the pathetic fawning one. Originally, I saw Sirius as loving Remus more than Remus loves Sirius solely because I wanted to be contrary. And I think that maybe that's where some of it comes in, regardless of whether or not people want to admit to that.

From a canonical standpoint, I do think that Sirius loves Remus more than Remus loves Sirius, but for very different reasons for pre-Azkaban and post-Azkaban Sirius.

Pre-Azkaban Sirius is incredibly passionate, and throws himself into everything he does with crazy amounts of gusto. And this is because he has absolutely nothing to lose. He's Hogwarts' Golden Boy to himself and to half the school's population. He is seen as Cool and Hot. If he does something stupid, it doesn't matter, because he's still Sirius Black. He still has that reputation that will cover any mistakes he could make. Pre-Azkaban Sirius has absolutely nothing in the world to lose if he loses Remus. So he can throw himself into a relationship with his all. He can lose control, he can be swept up in a very passionate and very intense romance. And if it ends, so what. Yeah, he'll hurt. Probably a lot. And maybe he'll never recover and he'll Angst and never love anyone again. But when you get down to it, there'll always be someone else. There's always someone else to back him up and support him, regardless of what he does. Someone will always like him. It might not be Remus, but it will be someone. Remus likes to be liked. He's going to restrain himself when he does things, not necessarily because he is controlled, but because if he and Sirius end up breaking up, he loses a very, very good friend. He loses someone who likes him. So he's going to make sure to not get too passionate about it, not too involved solely because he likes to be liked, not necessarily that he loves to be loved.

Post-Azkaban Sirius probably loves Remus more than Remus loves him because, well, Remus is used to Sirius leaving. Why risk such a huge emotional investment? And poor Remus, Sirius does end up leaving again. So maybe it's a preference in writers to kind of cut back on the angst, but really, I do see Sirius loving Remus more than Remus loves Sirius because Remus is controlled, yes, but because Remus has so little in the world that he doesn't want to lose it. The more of yourself that you put into something, the more you'll end up losing, and the less you'll have.

It's not to say that Remus doesn't love Sirius a great deal. I'm very sure that he does. And they probably do love each other equally, just in very very very different ways.

I hope this makes sense. Because my hands are kind of glittering and while I'm typing, I'm half going, "Oh my god! Glitter! Shiny!" And dammit, why don't I have an R/S icon to use for these kinds of things.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Pre-Azkaban Sirius has absolutely nothing in the world to lose if he loses Remus. So he can throw himself into a relationship with his all. He can lose control, he can be swept up in a very passionate and very intense romance. And if it ends, so what.

I don't think I've ever seen it that way--Sirius being more passionate because he has less to lose. But I'm not sure that's what I'm talking about--Sirius really being in love with Remus, as in "I love you, I want to be with you forever and after, and it will break my heart past all repair if you die or reject me." The fics that I've linked to and that have started me musing on this subject at all have Sirius as having more stake in the relationship with Remus, more to lose if it doesn't work out, because he loves Remus so very much, and that not even James would be able to make him feel any better if he somehow lost Remus. The way you characterized pre-Azkaban Sirius, it seemed like he had more passion than Remus, but not necessarily more love, and wasn't quite what I was talking about (though still very interesting to read anyway, and something I'll definitely be thinking about).

Remus likes to be liked. He's going to restrain himself when he does things, not necessarily because he is controlled, but because if he and Sirius end up breaking up, he loses a very, very good friend. He loses someone who likes him. So he's going to make sure to not get too passionate about it, not too involved solely because he likes to be liked, not necessarily that he loves to be loved.

I agree mostly with this, though maybe I'm just naive in believing that he might not have a choice in how much he loves Sirius, though that's really arguing just to be contrary :p. The whole not wanting to lose more people argument fits best, I think, though it's rather sad--how much would life really mean if you never let yourself really love someone because you were afraid? But that's more an emotional thing, and I daresay Remus wouldn't let that sway his beliefs.

Post-Azkaban Sirius probably loves Remus more than Remus loves him because, well, Remus is used to Sirius leaving.

Post-Azkaban Sirius also has other things on his mind--namely, Harry. Post-Azkaban (well, really post-PoA, as directly post-Azkaban Sirius is focused on Peter), Sirius has Harry as his top priority and top emotional investment, and Remus is going to come second place (and I'm fairly sure that Remus would understand and encourage that, considering that Harry needs family more than Remus needs a lover). So in that, I can see Sirius loving Remus a bit less, or at least less fiercely. Though on the other hand, I can see Sirius thinking of Remus as his lifeline in a place like Grimmauld Place, and so being more desperate...lots of options. Anyway. Remus I can see the way you've portrayed him, but I can also see him thinking something like "what have we got if we haven't got love?" (of any kind, romantic being just one facet) and deciding that Sirius needs love and he needs Sirius to love him because they have to make the most of whatever time they've got, and so on.

And dammit, why don't I have an R/S icon to use for these kinds of things.

Heh. thistlerose and thescarletwoman have a bunch of good R/S icons that they'd probably let you take if you asked.

Anyway, thanks for replying. Now I have a lot to think about :).

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

Now, me, I see Remus as passionate--but his self-control and reserve tends to hide it. Just because he controls his emotions doesn't mean that they aren't there.

I think that Remus is a bit overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of what he does feel, and is afraid of terrifying Sirius--perhaps pushing him away--by showing how deeply he does love. He doesn't want Sirius to feel trapped by Remus' love.

Also, I think that Remus has learned that whoever he loves, he loses. His parents are nowhere mentioned in canon; I think they would help their son if he were struggling, so I assume they are dead. James and Lily left him by dying. Peter seemingly died, but in reality betrayed him. Sirius seemingly betrayed him and was buried alive for twelve years in Azkaban.

This is a man who does not love or let down his emotional barriers easily. He tries to hold himself aloof, I think--not because he doesn't love, but so that there will be a portion of himself that will remain untouched and undamaged when he loses THIS person, as he has lost everyone else.

I don't think he wants things to be like this. He would, I think, give a great deal to love as fearlessly as Sirius does. But he can't.

He loves, though. It may take longer for him to recognize that love in himself. He may fight the vulnerability that love brings. But he does love--and with astonishing depth and passion.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Such a nice long comment and I can really only reply by saying "I agree", especially with the "just because he hides his emotions doesn't mean they aren't there" part. I've seen many, many characterizations of Remus throughout the year (?!) I've been in the HP fandom, and many of them could describe why Sirius might love Remus 'more', but I rather prefer the idea that they love each other equally but Remus at least is perhaps a bit blindsided by the intensity of his emotions.

[madilayn.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, I read those same fics and see that they do love each other equally, but that Sirius tends to show it much more than Remus.

It does, though, tend to read the Remus thinks that Sirius loves him more.

I can see Remus actually being afraid to be in love - and perhaps that was part of the problem when they both distrusted eachother in 1981. His fear of rejectino would cause him to be terrified about loving somebody wholeheartedly - that if he did so, they would be taken from him.

What I love is in Thistlerose's "The REturn of Footpad" when Sirius mentions that Remus doesn't say he loves him much. That, to me, is the essence of their characters.

Sirius is a creature of emotion - rather like the dog his animagus form is. He lives life mostly on the surface - but the major moving force in his life is love. Until he went to Hogwarts, it was something that was missing, but when he met MWP, he had friends to love, and when he fell in love with Remus, it completely transformed his life.

I can see this transformation is one of the reasons that pushed him to leave home.

When Harry was born, and James and Lily made him the godfather, I can see him transferring part of that total love ability of his to Harry - and that (with his love for Remus) is what helped him through Azkaban.

To be honest, to be loved by Sirius Black would be frightening. For somebody to be loved that intensely would cause feelings of insecurity, and the fear that you didn't love them as much as they love you - and possibly the world having that view as well.

Sirius, however, is wiser than he appears. He knows his Remus well, and knows that Remus loves him just as much as he loves Remus - even if he doesn't show it the same way, it's there. And it comes out in little ways - like Remus unquestioningly accepting that he was not guilty in the Shack, and also in the way Remus moved to Grimmauld Place without question.

Sirius says - Remus does.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

To be honest, to be loved by Sirius Black would be frightening. For somebody to be loved that intensely would cause feelings of insecurity, and the fear that you didn't love them as much as they love you - and possibly the world having that view as well.

That, I think, says what might be it (it'll be different for everyone, of course, as everyone has different views of the characters) so well that I hardly need add anything :p. Sirius seems so intense in every thing that he does that I can easily see that intensity causing doubts in the mind of his partner because their feelings don't seem as intense in comparison (doesn't mean they aren't as deep though :D).

[chimbleysweep]

This shall be another good topic for my strange little Marauders essay series thing.

My opinions will be known. Fear not.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I think the passion/control may be part of it, but for me it's not always the case. I love to play with the relationship between them -- it's one of the reasons I write slash, to be frank -- though there is always the element of Sirius not necessarily loving more, but being less able to detatch. Sirius is a big drama queen (and has reason to be) and he would survive without Remus, it's just that he won't admit it :D

Remus is far more in love with Sirius in Stealing Harry, it's just he won't show it. In fact most of my one-offs are Sirius realising Remus finds him desireable and switching teams for a bit to enjoy it :D

[rynne.livejournal.com]

As you're one of the authors I mentioned, I'm glad to hear your take on it. Playing with the relationship is always fun. Especially with Sirius, who has Big Emotional Problems and pretty much always has. Loving him would be a challenge and being loved by him would be slightly frightening, I think.

In fact most of my one-offs are Sirius realising Remus finds him desireable and switching teams for a bit to enjoy it :D

Only switching teams for a bit? Glad they're only one-shots, then! :p

[sophia-black.livejournal.com]

I don't think Remus loves Sirius any less than Sirius loves him, he just doesn't show it in the same way Sirius does. Sirius is very passionate about everything, it's who he is, so he shows things much more obviously than others. They love each other equally but I think Sirius is just more obvious about it. Sirius knows Remus loves him but Remus isn't one to flaunt it, I guess. This really is a great point though, because most fanon does have Sirius hopelessly and completely in love, while Remus is reserved and not as head-over-heels as Sirius. I don't know if this made any sense, I don't think I really made a particular point but I know when I write R/S I never have one more in love than the other. Anyway, just my thoughts on the issue. btw: I'm going to friend you, just so you know. :) See ya.

[thescarletwoman.livejournal.com]

Ditto the not reading of the comments... I want this to be really unbiased so I'm probably repeating... blah blah blah. Oh, and this is also being written when I should be writing my Beethoven presentation and am going on Five hours of sleep, so bear with the ramblings.

I think a lot of it has to do with their personalities, or at least in how I see their personalities. I've always seen Remus as being a reserved person. He's one not to rock the boat, and happy to not be noticed. It's as if he doesn't want people to take not of him and ask what he is. That, and as a child, he was forced to keep the secret of what he was. I'd think that would be enough to keep anyone closed off from people and withdrawn. Once you become closed off in one area, it carries into other areas as well: like emotions. Rarely in the books do we really see Remus show emotion at things. He raises his voice at the OotP meeting (The everpopular Puppylove quote: "sirius, sit down!"), but when Sirius falls through the veil, there isn't much of a reaction on his part, at least to others. Hence, whe I'd think that Remus would be more reserved in how he loves Sirius.

Though, I don't think for one minute that Remus loves Sirius any less than Sirius loves Remus.

I just think that Sirius has nothing more to lose anymore. He's been abandoned by his family and thus puts his love into those closest to him: namely James and Remus. I also have the feeling that at some point when his family turned on him, Sirius learned what it was like to not be loved. Thus, when he loves, he loves completely as he'd never want Remus to feel unloved by "family" as he did.

Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled?

I think a lot of it has to do with that. I know some of my fics figure into some of the R/S cliches, but, they're cliches I like and thus I'll keep writing them. I've always written Remus as being one that needs to control the wolf inside him. Again, the point of getting used to things. Remus controls the wolf/he controls how he reacts when in love. But, once alone with Sirius, he does have a more passionate side which I think Sirius brings out in him. Remus, in my opinion, probably grew up with the notion that he'd grow up and die alone as no one would ever take the time to want to love a werewolf. It would be too dangerous. Thus, I think somewhere in the back of his mind, Remus wonders if Sirius is in fact going to move on from him. Thus, he'd be afraid to love so wholly and completely at the risk of getting hurt as Sirius just may be his only chance at a 'forever sort of relationship'. Sirius, on the other hand, knows he's not leaving Remus and thus can be the passionate one, in the attempt to show Remus that he isn't going anywhere and is going to be by his side through the long haul.

That's all my muddled brain can come up with. Hope it was at least somewhat decipherable.

[runiebug.livejournal.com]

Not to get into too much psychobabble but I see Remus as having self-esteem issues (who wouldn't in his situation!) and a person who does not love himself cannot love anyone else very well either. He wants to be liked but is always surprised when people do like/admire/love him. Sirius, on the other hand, whatever else has come at him in life, doesn't doubt himself often and thus has the greater capacity to both give and receive love.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

A lot of people have covered most of what I'd say about this.

There are a couple other things, though - one technical - ifyou're writing from Sirius's POV, then of course it's going to seem as if Sirius is completely ass-over-teakettle in love and he's trying to win/woo/court Remus.

If you're writing from Remus's POV, even if he's attempting to seduce Sirius, he's always going to be a bit more reserved even inside his own head. He's not going to admit even to himself how important Sirius is.

I also think it comes of freedom - Sirius had the freedom, when they were younger, to completely commit everything he has to someone else. It's not necessarily healthy, but that seems to be what Sirius does - he throws himself 110% into MWPP, into out-Gryffindoring the best Gryffindors, into fighting the Dark Arts and not being a typical member of the Black family. So he gives that same effort to loving whoever he loves.

Remus holds it all inside and only very slowly and carefully does he let his layers be peeled away. I think he has a hard time accepting that people care for him, let alone love him, and so he's very sparing of showing his own love, at least in public.

Also, the prank has to be taken into account - Sirius is the one who has to beg forgiveness there, even if he never actually does - so he may come across looking more desperate than Remus does. The break in trust obviously was never fully healed, and post-Azkaban Sirius probably has a bit of clinginess about him, because now he's got no one but Remus (and Harry), and he's probably afraid Remus has moved on and even if he doesn't hate him, he's not interested in restarting an old relationship.

Sirius has an obsessive personality, and he would be the kind who'd make his lover the whole world, at least for a while. Since I tend to think that if they actually were together in canon, it didn't happen until after the prank and likely late in their Hogwarts career or even after they left school, it doesn't leave them much time to grow out of that honeymoon phase.

I think it's just a difference in the way they express their love, and of course, the difference of whose point of view the story is from.

On the other hand, that seeming imbalance is something I've addressed - and had them address - in various stories, because it's one of the things that makes them interesting to me.

I think Sirius spent a lot of time convincing Remus he loved him *at all*, which means he probably spent a lot more time thinking/talking/"proving" his love, because I think Remus thinks he's not very lovable and would have a hard time believing Sirius loved him, if that makes sense. So of course Sirius would have to be a lot more vocal and expressive than Remus is, though I have no doubt Sirius wishes Remus would be more expressive.

There's also Sirius's carelessness to take into account - maybe Sirius threw the words around a lot to get laid, and so Remus doesn't take them at face value, and he says them very rarely but only when he means them. So Sirius is really saying, "I love you" but Remus is hearing, "I want to get into your pants." etc. and thus Sirius has to work harder.

Mostly, I think it depends on the story you're trying to tell.

[arislanchan.livejournal.com]

Okay... trying this answer for the 2rd time. :P (It just had to freeze as I tried to post it, eh.)

First off, I have to say I don't agree with that common 'stereotype' of their relationship. I can see where it comes from, but I have reasons to believe it wouldn't be that way. I'll attempt to separate out my trains of thought so I can remember all of what I wrote before.

1) Their personalities. As you commented above, Sirius is generally seen as more outspoken and passionate, while Remus is more reserved and keeps more to himself. While these characterisations are basically true, for some reason many people like to transfer these personalities and apply them to their attitudes towards love. This means that inevitably Sirius, 'the more passionate one' gets to be the one who is more in love. Not necessarily a logical correlation, but one where it's easy to see where it came from.

2) Reality. In general, feelings between couples are rarely exactly mutual. There's nearly always one who loves a little more, or is a little more forgiving, or is prepared to do some things for the sake of the relationship that the other is not. That's not to say that either values the relationship less; just that it's illogical to expect both people to feel exactly the same, and love exactly the same 'amount'. It's good that this aspect is often explored in R/S fics, I just think it's sometimes taken a little too far, or that the difference in feelings is slightly too much. Also, there's the fact that it always seems to be Sirius who's more 'in love', for reasons stated above.

3)My view: that Remus would be the one who loves Sirius more. So, if there was an imbalance in their relationship, I always saw it as Remus being the more devoted, so to speak. Reasoning? Well, Remus has had to cope with a lot of disappointment and loss in relation to Sirius (namely the Prank and Azkaban) and yet has forgiven him, seemingly unconditionally. It takes a lot of love and, well, devotion to do something like that.
Remus' past: As a child, he was an outcast and ostracised for being a werewolf - he clearly never had friends until he met the marauders at school. As we know from JKR, he valued his friends more than anything, thus not even wanting to stand up to them so he could perform his Prefect duties. Remus loved having friends he could trust - more than anything. So, when he got involved with Sirius, it seems logical that it would have been a desperate, deep love. I can see him becoming emotionally dependant on Sirius; his whole life he probably never expected to be able to have feelings (or a relationship) like this, and now his feelings are being returned by someone he trusts most. So, IMO, if either of them felt 'more love' for the other, it was Remus.
Of course, the Prank would change that, and no doubt severely shake Remus' trust in Sirius... and yet he obviously forgave him.

I can't even remember why I rambled off on a slight tangent... but there's my thoughts. :)

[latentfunction.livejournal.com]

Actually I haven't read "Alive", so I don't know when that takes place, but I know that MC6 and "Seven things" both took place before Halloween 81, and my thoughts on this pretty much only deals with postPoA, mainly OotP.

Remus has had his entire live to love, whether people, books, food, etc, but Sirius has essentially missed out on 12 years. He didn't have anything to focus on in Azkaban, much less love, so I think he threw himself into relationships once he got out. His interactions with everyone seem so passionate. With Harry, he risks everything to be there for him (paraphrasing Harry's thoughts after he dies) repeatedly. Sirius can't get the emotional bits down, but he always does what he can manage. With Severus, he is unmoving in his hatred. He knows that Severus is helping them, but he takes every possible opportunity to be a bastard right back at him.

Basically, I can see Sirius loving Remus more than Remus loves Sirius in OotP simply because Sirius has nothing else to focus on.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Found my way here via quickquote.

As musesfool said, most of that is due to the POV of the story. Some of it may simply be sloppy writing on part of the author (I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular -- of the stories you listed as examples, I've only read one, but if you've spent any time on Azkaban Lair, you probably know what I mean).

But a lot of it, at least in recent stories -- you have to wade through the oodles of stories with Remus as a chick with a dick before you find one where Remus has control -- has to do with the way Sirius is shown in OOTP. A lot of stories I've read seem to have Sirius's love as an apology for being a young idiotic bastard (as if the author is saying, 'see, look how much he cares about poor Remus, he's not all that bad no matter what the Pensieve scene says') and then, later, after Azkaban, that love is the only anchor on sanity he has while he's locked up in Grimmauld Place.

Another thought is that it's part of his character. In canon, Sirius has a obsessive personality. Very obsessive. Look at the single-mindedness of which he pursues Peter -- it's all over the Shack scene at the end of PoA. It makes sense that Sirius's lack of limits in everything he does would carry over to a relationship. Remus, on the other hand, seems to have a pretty good measure of what and who Sirius is -- at least when he's older. I actually think Remus knew who he was friends with when they were in Hogwarts and frankly just didn't care but I'm sure lots of people would disagree with that so YMMV. If you were completely aware of the sort of mess Sirius is and still decided to have a relationship with him, would you put out your all? Knowing that he is/was a young idiotic bastard with family issues who can't stand being locked up and is almost suicidally depressed?

There's also the possibility that the author creates that distance in Remus in a deliberate attempt to simulate a D/s or M/s relationship with Remus in control. (I actually haven't read where one this is explicit, beyond simple porn, though I'd really like to.)

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is going to be very coherent because I just got back from a long drive, and I have a cold. *sniffles*

I see Sirius as being more in love at this moment (late teens/early twenties) for a few of reasons.

For one thing, I think that Remus is afraid of giving his soul entirely to another person. In canon he's shown to be fairly reticent with his emotions. I think it makes sense considering the way he's been kicked around by society and considering the fact that once a month this monster takes over his mind and body. He's afraid of losing himself to another person. Sirius, on the other hand, is almost completely uninhibited. He feels what he feels and to hell with the consequences.

Secondly, in my ficverse, I think that they were well on the way to real love -- and the Prank derailed it. Sirius nearly lost Remus and learned from the experience. Remus forgave Sirius, but he has difficulty trusting him. He knows that Sirius would never hurt him intentionally, but Sirius is capable of great thoughtlessness and irrational anger. If not for the war, they might have been able to repair their relationship, but life got in the way. :(

Even before the Prank, Sirius was a very flawed gem. I spent most of "Three Weeks Outside Time" wondering why Remus would give him a chance. Sure Sirius loves him and wants to do well by him, but is that enough?

Thirdly, happiness for Remus has always been a temporary thing. He's always lived with the fear of being found out and losing all he has. Sirius may have given him no reason to believe he'd leave him, but loss is what he's used to. He's taught himself to put other things before Sirius in an attempt to protect himself should the worst happen.

Fourthly...I'm building toward something! Where's the fun if they loved each other equally all along? Regardless of what Rowling does, the climax of my series is going to be Remus' realisation that he loves Sirius as much as one human being can love another. And that it's his love for Sirius that makes him human in the eyes of the only people who matter. Then he has to save Sirius. :)

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Oh -- and there's this: the authors you listed all, I believe, love Remus more than Sirius. I wouldn't be surprised if that has something to do with it... ^__~

yes and no.... (part I)

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

I'm helpful, aren't I? :^) This will be in two parts, because it's too long and I can't think clearly enough to cut it down.

Truthfully, though, I think that it's more a question of perception. It's not so much that Remus shows his love more reservedly, or even that Sirius dives in headfirst.

I think that they do love each other just as much as the other. But....

Remus is a survivor. He had to survive on the outside all the years that Sirius survived in Azkaban. Sirius's existence became very simple, as directed by the Dementors, escaping into dog form to bear it. He did have to live with what Remus thought, but he knew that it was a giant, ironic, horrible misunderstanding. Remus, on the other hand, had to live in a world where he was expected to continue interacting with others, where he had to pick himself up and move on. And Remus is outwardly so put-together, so reconciled, in PoA, that it's understandable to think that no matter how difficult it was there, for a while, by the time he's introduced to the series, he's *over* Sirius. If he's able to get past it, then he must not have loved as deeply. If love for Remus is one of the only things that kept Sirius hanging on, then he must love Remus more completely than Remus did.

Now, there's a lot of fallacy in the reasoning, if that's the reasoning behind it (and it may not be that, for everything). For one thing, I think that Remus is only "over" Sirius on the surface. I think that for many aspects of his life, he's simply resigned - resigned to being alone, resigned to his condition, resigned to the way his life has gone up to that point. I think that his feelings for Sirius are just below the surface - just suppressed enough that he doesn't think about it every day, but not so resolved that the mere mention of his lover's name doesn't rattle him.

For another, I think that post-PoA, the thought of losing Sirius a second time, particularly the two of them screwing it up again, is something Remus isn't sure he could survive. Much the way that people attribute Sirius not being able to survive, had Remus died or been taken away (I'll get to OoP). I know this essential problem is something that AjesBlue and I have talked about extensively as part of what needs to be resolved within the arc of Between the Lines (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Beasties_Boys/Between_the_Lines/) - the fear both these men have of messing it up again.

TBC....

yes and no... (Part II)

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Now, I will be the first one to say that I plan to divorce my opinions about the plot of OoP and beyond in canon from how I choose to participate in fandom. Like copperbadge, I think canon is a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. However, the basic understanding of their characters remains the same. Now that Sirius is gone (or "gone", if you think he might be back), the obvious question is: Will Remus be able to live with it? Will he heal? Will he (eventually) take another lover? If he can, does that mean he didn't love Sirius the way he loved Remus?

The answer is: of course not. People lose loved ones and they find new people to love. Loving someone else - either in the interim, or after death - does not discount the other relationship, it doesn't mean that Remus "replaced" Sirius. But I can see how sometimes it might turn into, or be perceived as, a more "shallow" attitude toward their partnership.

In my version of Remus, he tried to put his life back together and move on. He took lovers, but always wound up comparing them to Sirius. They came up wanting, so he'd break things off. He'd put himself out there, but always decide that it wasn't worth it. Sirius had no such opportunity, of course, but I think that he had played the field enough to know, when he realized it was Remus, that that was it. He was the only one from that point on. (Note: I don't think Sirius was the Hogwarts resident slut, but I do think he dated quite a bit. AjesBlue and I also determined that they didn't get together until after Hogwarts.)

After OoP, we'll never know whether Sirius could have picked himself up the way Remus (we think) did and tried once more to find another partner. He may have had no more success than (IMO) Remus, and he may grow resigned, as Remus (IMO) did, to never quite finding anyone who would measure up to the love he lost. But I don't think that the willingness to try means that either one loves, or didn't love, as deeply or as passionately as the other.

Gah. It's late and I hope this makes sense.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

So, I came here via quickquote and I started a response.

It grew. *shakes head* Thus, because I am very verbose, I'm going to link you to my post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/saeva/16984.html) in which, I think, I answer your question in full.

Hope it helps!

- Andrea.