Thoughts

[rynne]

Public, as I want opinions, and not just from people on my flist.

So. I was just rereading a few fics, namely thistlerose's Midnight Conversation #6, copperbadge's Alive, lupercali's Seven Things That Didn't Happen At Hogwarts On Valentine's Day, Or Maybe They Did and a myriad of other fics, and I was thinking, and I noticed something that they all have in common.

They all have Sirius more in love with Remus than Remus is with Sirius.

Like in "Alive", Sam writes, "Remus had never felt so entirely tied up in a single person, the way Sirius had been. He had loved Sirius, of course he had loved Sirius, but his happiness and his life had not been dependent on Sirius loving him."

MC#6 is pretty much about how Sirius loves Remus more than Remus loves him (at that time).

Seventh year of "Seven Things..." also seems to be pretty much that, as is Pru's Levityverse.

I've also gotten that same impression from a few of musesfool's fics.

Four of the most highly-respected authors (at least according to me) in the R/S subfandom have the same sort of theme on how the R/S relationship works. And, I was just wondering why. Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled? Something along those lines?

All opinions are very much appreciated. Especially if they turn into debates :).

Comments

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled?

You know, I think that, yes, that's exactly what it is. So I can't really go starting any debates for you, but I do think you've got the right idea about it. :)

[jurhael.livejournal.com]

They love each other equally, it's just shown in different ways.

"Is it because Sirius is passionate and Remus is controlled? Something along those lines?"

Yup. That pretty much sums it up.

[pinkfinity.livejournal.com]

Before OOTP, I didn't see as many of this kind of relationship, but since then I've felt it makes a lot of sense,because it's easy to read OOTP as giving the reason for Sirius to leave his home - and thaat reason is Remus. He loves a half-blood and that's bad enough in his home, but a half-blood werewolf? How could he stay in that house in such misery? But his love for Remus has to be enough that he'd leave everything behind for him.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Ah, but being controlled does not mean that Remus can't love Sirius just as much as Sirius loves him, it just means that Remus isn't going to be shouting it to the world and all that. That's why I'm hesitant about thinking it's for that reason. Control doesn't stop emotions, after all, it just helps hide them.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, I rather like to think that they love each other equally, but so many fics portray Sirius as loving Remus more, and I was wondering why. And the thing that bothers me about the whole passion vs control thing is that control doesn't stop passion, it just hides it--Remus can be just as passionate about Sirius, but doesn't show it. It's just that these fics show Remus as not having that passion about Sirius that Sirius has about him.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But then why can't Remus still love Sirius just as much?

And it's not like Sirius was leaving all that much behind--material possessions, certainly, and the respect of his family, but he doesn't appear to want his family's respect, and material possessions are unimportant compared with people. And Sirius was going to James--a far better life. Hardly leaving everything behind when he's going forward into something better.

my ramble

[randomalia.livejournal.com]

I think I tend to see it as based in their different natures. Sirius is, to me, defined very much by his love. Its where his great sense of loyalty comes from, imo (hence the dog form), which drives his actions. He almost seems to need someone to dedicate himself to, in life. Which is why it seems wholly natural - and inevitable - for him to have found romantic love from that very insular and close group of James, Peter, Remus, and why it is so fundamental to him.

Remus, on the other hand, seems to need the friendship more, if that makes sense. I always have this feeling about Remus like he's waiting for the other shoe to drop, or tensing himself for the hit. I wouldn't say he loved Sirius less, but that perhaps if he could only have Sirius as a friend, he would take it, because he understands what its like to be without friends. He doesn't need a person to dedicate himself to to have meaning/satisfaction the way Sirius seems to.

So in that way, it seems natural for Sirius to give himself over completely, while Remus sort of loves him while being careful.

[nyias.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. I think that this argument holds too many assumptions, and doesn't take into account the fact that Sirius was only fifteen years old when he left.

he doesn't appear to want his family's respect

Not anymore, at least. But Sirius has had a good two decades to convince himself of this by the time we see him in OotP, as well as thirteen years in prison, where he can't have been doing much other than thinking.

material possessions are unimportant compared with people

That's certainly what someone with a lot of life experience will say, but I think that there are plenty of people who think that material possessions are just as important, or even moreso, than some people. I'm not too sure that Sirius would have been one of these types of people, but at the same time, it seems as though he may have been raised in an environment that valued certain objects over certain people.

And Sirius was going to James--a far better life. Hardly leaving everything behind when he's going forward into something better.

But taking that leap must be incredibly scary for a fifteen year-old, no matter how old he or she is. Personally, I think that there must be some instances where even though it's obvious that you're going toward something better, it's very difficult to leave behind whatever you had. This would (probably, again, my opinion) be especially true for Sirius, whose family has basically indoctrinated him with their beliefs in the Dark Arts and such. James is the type of person that Sirius has been warned against for his entire life, and even if he wants to go live with James, he won't be able to entirely forget everything that his family has taught him.

I realize that there are a lot of holes in my arguement, but this is just to get you thinking. :D Even if Sirius was brave, I somewhat doubt that it would be easy for him to leave his family.

Hmmmm

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

For me, I think Remus HAS to be in control of his emotions. Not only is he a half blood, but he's half werewolf, a double whammy given to him,(since pure bloods look down on both muggleborns and half bloods).

Lupin made a choice long ago to be in control of his emotions. He's had to be in control of his werewolf emotions for so long, I'm not surprised that it seeped over to his "normal" side.

Even though I know that Snape's potion helps Lupin remember who he is when he's a werewolf, I don't think it's JUST the potion that makes Lupin calm in that state, it's Lupin himself that makes him calm in his own mind.


I see Lupin as an insecure person who doesn't like expressing anger.The perfect example of that was in OoTP when James and Sirius were being gits to Snape, and Lupin did nothing(although the slight frown on his face showed his disapproval of what his two friends were about to do).

I know this seems strange, but I really do think that Harry and Lupin are going to get closer in the next 2 books. I don't know how to describe it, but I see Harry being the key to Lupin finally opening up to someone. If he can love Harry as Sirius did, he can love and appreciate himself a bit more.

I don't know if that makes sense, and I'm babbling. haha.

Veela

[ashesofautumn.livejournal.com]

I disagree with that imbalance. I think they are equally in love with one another, however they choose to show it in their separate ways. My opinion on whether or not it's because Remus is "controlled" and Sirius passionate is immaterial, since I don't see the relationship's dynamics in that way.

[devkel.livejournal.com]

I agree that a lot of fics give the impression that Sirius loves Remus more. I don't exactly know why -- maybe you're right in that Sirius is portrayed as more passionate in canon whereas Remus is more controlled.

If that's the case, then I find it really interesting that authors took that little glimpse into the characters and turned it into the particular dynamic that we're beginning to see so much of in fandom. Personally, I feel (and I try to incorporate it into my own fics) that it makes even more sense for them to love each other equally -- just in their own ways.

Sirius, to me, seems like that kind of guy that could get completely wrapped up in a person and be really loud and forward in his feelings. Remus I think would be more reserved, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's any less intense.

Hmm, interesting. Well, you definitely gave me something to think about! =)

--
devyn

[rynne.livejournal.com]

My opinion on whether or not it's because Remus is "controlled" and Sirius passionate is immaterial, since I don't see the relationship's dynamics in that way.

Oh, neither do I, really. But I know that many people do, or at least seem to, as evidenced by their writing that very thing, and I was wondering what led them to that sort of assumption.

[neatokates.livejournal.com]

Please excuse me if I'm repeating anything or if I confuse fanon with canon...it's so hard to tell the difference now. ^_^

Now, we don't know much about Remus, really. We know that he was bitten when he was young, his parents tried to find a cure, he was a prefect, and so on.

Maybe there's just some sense in the fanon that Remus has lost a lot during his life, even before Halloween '81. He lost a normal childhood when he was bitten, for one. And, in OotP, Sirius makes it quite clear the Remus was "the good boy" and "got the badge", so then why is James Head Boy? And let us not forget the imfamous Prank... What more has happened that hasn't been explicitly stated?

The wonderful thistlerose has hinted to this in her latest R/S arc...just look at what is happening to Remus' father. Many other fics have Remus with only one parent (divorce, usually, although death is popular as well).

So, to get to my point already, maybe Remus is just too afraid to let himself get close to anything or anyone, namely Sirius, because he fears they will be taken away. And, of course, this was re-affirmed on Halloween '81.

Personally, I prefer fics where there's equal love. But this is just a theory. I hope this was somewhat understandable. ^_^

right!

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

So, to get to my point already, maybe Remus is just too afraid to let himself get close to anything or anyone, namely Sirius, because he fears they will be taken away. And, of course, this was re-affirmed on Halloween '81.

Exactly! I don't think that Sirius loved Remus more or vice versa, but I do believe that the background of Lupin's life story, has a lot to do with how his character is written by fan fic writers.

Lupin is more logical than emotional, the death of Sirius is a perfect example of how Lupin is able to take a situation, no matter how dire, and think logically.

That's why I think Harry will be the one to make Lupin finally show the love he's been hiding for so long. Harry and Lupin have both lost someone they love, Sirius.

I think that love will bring them together.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Not anymore, at least. But Sirius has had a good two decades to convince himself of this by the time we see him in OotP, as well as thirteen years in prison, where he can't have been doing much other than thinking.

Well, there's also that he'd probably already lost it by the time he ran away--he was sorted into Gryffindor, after all, and his family doesn't seem the type to like Gryffindors. Also being in Gryffindor, I daresay he had some sort of prejudice against Slytherins, which is the impression I got from the pensieve scene, and his family was certainly quite Slytherin.

I'm not too sure that Sirius would have been one of these types of people, but at the same time, it seems as though he may have been raised in an environment that valued certain objects over certain people.

Well, this also depends on when precisely it was that he ran away. It could have been over the summer, but it could also have easily been over winter break, during which a bunch of Sirius's possessions would probably have been at Hogwarts. But even so, the same passion he shows that partly brought on this post, the passion that he shows for people, leads me to think that he'd value people over possessions. After all, he gave Hagrid his beloved motorbike, and he was far closer to fifteen then than he was in OotP.

This would (probably, again, my opinion) be especially true for Sirius, whose family has basically indoctrinated him with their beliefs in the Dark Arts and such. James is the type of person that Sirius has been warned against for his entire life, and even if he wants to go live with James, he won't be able to entirely forget everything that his family has taught him.

But he seems to have at least put off what his family taught him enough to get sorted into Gryffindor and make James his best friend. We know how much he loved James, and remember, in the pensieve scene, that James stopped playing with the snitch just because Sirius wanted him to. I don't think that was one-sided. And if he hated his family enough to run away just a year before his legal majority, I think that says a lot. I don't think it was half so hard for Sirius to leave his family as you're arguing. But I did ask for debate :D :D :D.

Btw, just because I'm curious...how'd you find this post?

[tinitinytina.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the other replies, so forgive me for being repetitive. Here's my take of:

Remus grew up as a child knowing that he was a werewolf, and he knew how the Wizarding World treats his "kind." There's no substantial canon proof, but he probably grew up reserved because he figured no one would want to be friends with him. Wouldn't you, if you knew that 9.5 out of every 10 person you meet would hate you and ostracize you for something you have absolutely no control over?

With that thought in mind, I think it became second nature for him to distant himself from others. He never told his friends about his werewolf self, and if James and Sirius hadn't figured it out, he probably would have kept on blinding them. Even with his deepest friend, he's scared and distant.

Therefore, I think he grew up forcing himself to be self-dependent, and it would be too much to ask him to break out of his cold shell. Certainly, he is the most sensitive of the three (my take), and he's intelligent, calm, and logical, but he's less passionate. He's imbalanced more on the head side than the heart side of the scale whereas James and Sirius are the opposite. I'm not saying they're not just as intelligent, but the latter two are more likely to do something out of passionate feelings than Remus are.

With that in mind, I find it quite logical for Remus to be in love but not passion. (It's also kind of how I see myself).

Take Remus' personality and throw in Sirius' love-starved childhood, and you've got what you have. Despite what Sirius would want people to think, he is extremely passionate, and he needs love even more than most people. Oh sure, he's Hogwarts' greatest trouble-maker, but his tendency to fly into rages show just how deep he feels when he does allow himself to feel.

^^;; Did I just manage to bore you with my rambling nonsense?

[nyias.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was half so hard for Sirius to leave his family as you're arguing.

I don't think so either. *ducks* I do think that it was more difficult for him to leave than you were saying initially, but all of your points are very good ones. I agree that the Gryffindor point is one of the most important ones-- Sirius certainly has proven himself to be brave, and I think that he didn't just blossom into it at Hogwarts-- in my opinion, he was brave before he got there, even if he didn't realize it (like Neville.) And you have an excellent point with respect to the motorbike-- I hadn't even thought of it.

And I found this post via my friends of friends list, I think. If not, it would have been through the Marauders Slash community. Either way, I have heard of you before, even if I don't follow your fandom involvement (or real life!) at all.

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that Sirius gives himself over completely to what he's passionate about, while Remus, though he does feel very strongly, keeps most of the feeling internal. Therefore, Sirius and Remus do love each other equally, but Sirius, who is more passionate in everything he feels, gives off the impression that his love is greater, simply from the way he expresses it.

If that makes any sense. >.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I agree with that, but that's not what's happening in the fics I'm talking about. These fics are from Remus' point of view, and they say explicitly that Sirius loves Remus more and Remus knows it. And I was just wondering how the people who do think that Sirius loved Remus more than Remus loved Sirius think about the characters in order to give their relationship that sort of twist.

Re: my ramble

[rynne.livejournal.com]

So in that way, it seems natural for Sirius to give himself over completely, while Remus sort of loves him while being careful.

I agree about that, and that Remus would be satisfied with friendship if that's all he could get, but then I think Sirius would too. And before Harry was born, Sirius could devote himself to MWP, and afterwards to Harry--in fact, he's still devoted to Harry, and more than he is to Remus. I don't think Sirius really had many friends pre-Hogwarts, as I don't think he'd like the kind of people his parents would want him to be friends with, so he knows the value of friends just as much as Remus does, especially if he was ostracized at first in Gryffindor for being a Black, which some people seem to think. And especially after the Prank, he would know that any of Remus's love that he got would not be unconditional, though as Sirius is more inherently careless and reckless than Remus is, he most likely wouldn't be thinking about that.

About Remus loving him while being careful...I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Another commenter suggested that he kept part of himself back to avoid being hurt--do you mean something like that?

Btw, how'd you find this post? I'm just curious :).

Re: Hmmmm

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Remus isn't in control or doesn't have to be in control. He's probably the most controlled person in the series. What I'm wondering is how that control leads to him not loving Sirius as much as Sirius loves him, or at least as some people have implied is so.

I hope that Remus and Harry get closer in the next two books. After all, Remus is the only one left who can really tell Harry was his father was liked, especially without Snape's bias against James.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

That actually makes more sense than some of the other things I've heard. Remus keeping some part of himself back to avoid eventually being hurt seems a very Remus-thing to do, whereas Sirius just throws himself wholeheartedly into things. So yeah, I can see Remus holding himself back, though dunno how much choice he'd really have...

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I agree with your take on the characters, but it doesn't really explain how Sirius would be more in love with Remus than Remus is with Sirius. Remus can still be very much in love with Sirius without being as passionate about it as Sirius is. Quieter love doesn't necessarily mean weaker love, after all, though I wonder if that's one of the reasons some people seem to think Sirius loves Remus more--Remus being more quiet is certainly the reason some seem to think him somewhat feminine (>.<).

[immortalis.livejournal.com]

I originally started to read all the other comments, but decided I wanted mine to be unbiased. Heh.

For a while, fandom was always trying to make Remus out to be a girl with a penis. He was always crying, always a virgin, always a bottom, always submissive, always shy and nervous, always So In Love with a Sirius who was more masculine than Superman after ten shots of testosterone mixed with tequila. I personally enjoyed seeing a Remus who wasn't the pathetic fawning one. Originally, I saw Sirius as loving Remus more than Remus loves Sirius solely because I wanted to be contrary. And I think that maybe that's where some of it comes in, regardless of whether or not people want to admit to that.

From a canonical standpoint, I do think that Sirius loves Remus more than Remus loves Sirius, but for very different reasons for pre-Azkaban and post-Azkaban Sirius.

Pre-Azkaban Sirius is incredibly passionate, and throws himself into everything he does with crazy amounts of gusto. And this is because he has absolutely nothing to lose. He's Hogwarts' Golden Boy to himself and to half the school's population. He is seen as Cool and Hot. If he does something stupid, it doesn't matter, because he's still Sirius Black. He still has that reputation that will cover any mistakes he could make. Pre-Azkaban Sirius has absolutely nothing in the world to lose if he loses Remus. So he can throw himself into a relationship with his all. He can lose control, he can be swept up in a very passionate and very intense romance. And if it ends, so what. Yeah, he'll hurt. Probably a lot. And maybe he'll never recover and he'll Angst and never love anyone again. But when you get down to it, there'll always be someone else. There's always someone else to back him up and support him, regardless of what he does. Someone will always like him. It might not be Remus, but it will be someone. Remus likes to be liked. He's going to restrain himself when he does things, not necessarily because he is controlled, but because if he and Sirius end up breaking up, he loses a very, very good friend. He loses someone who likes him. So he's going to make sure to not get too passionate about it, not too involved solely because he likes to be liked, not necessarily that he loves to be loved.

Post-Azkaban Sirius probably loves Remus more than Remus loves him because, well, Remus is used to Sirius leaving. Why risk such a huge emotional investment? And poor Remus, Sirius does end up leaving again. So maybe it's a preference in writers to kind of cut back on the angst, but really, I do see Sirius loving Remus more than Remus loves Sirius because Remus is controlled, yes, but because Remus has so little in the world that he doesn't want to lose it. The more of yourself that you put into something, the more you'll end up losing, and the less you'll have.

It's not to say that Remus doesn't love Sirius a great deal. I'm very sure that he does. And they probably do love each other equally, just in very very very different ways.

I hope this makes sense. Because my hands are kind of glittering and while I'm typing, I'm half going, "Oh my god! Glitter! Shiny!" And dammit, why don't I have an R/S icon to use for these kinds of things.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

Now, me, I see Remus as passionate--but his self-control and reserve tends to hide it. Just because he controls his emotions doesn't mean that they aren't there.

I think that Remus is a bit overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of what he does feel, and is afraid of terrifying Sirius--perhaps pushing him away--by showing how deeply he does love. He doesn't want Sirius to feel trapped by Remus' love.

Also, I think that Remus has learned that whoever he loves, he loses. His parents are nowhere mentioned in canon; I think they would help their son if he were struggling, so I assume they are dead. James and Lily left him by dying. Peter seemingly died, but in reality betrayed him. Sirius seemingly betrayed him and was buried alive for twelve years in Azkaban.

This is a man who does not love or let down his emotional barriers easily. He tries to hold himself aloof, I think--not because he doesn't love, but so that there will be a portion of himself that will remain untouched and undamaged when he loses THIS person, as he has lost everyone else.

I don't think he wants things to be like this. He would, I think, give a great deal to love as fearlessly as Sirius does. But he can't.

He loves, though. It may take longer for him to recognize that love in himself. He may fight the vulnerability that love brings. But he does love--and with astonishing depth and passion.