The personal nature of shipping and fandom

[rynne]

So I watch metafandom, and periodically I find something I'm interested in and that inspires some thoughts of my own. Today cupidsbow posted meta on modes of fannish discourse. I think that's an incredibly interesting topic, though what it made me think about is really only tangentially related.

I don't have an organized schema for my own meta posts, but what I almost always do is explore my own personal reactions to things. On one level, I welcome discussion and disagreement, because I know objectively that mine is not the only valid opinion out there, but on another level, I don't really want to see anything but agreement, that external validation of my opinion. Most of my meta has this element of the personal, and though I try to distance myself emotionally, it doesn't always happen. It is this that sometimes makes me open to debate--I think that I'm right, and that someone else is wrong, and I need to prove I'm right or else the idea that I'm wrong--and more, why I'm wrong--is just going to eat away at me.

I normally try to stay away from debates, because I'm very nonconfrontational and self-protective. (Obviously, I don't have the best self-esteem if someone else's opinion on some aspect of a TV show is enough to disturb my peace of mind. XD) I will only engage in debate with someone I can trust to be polite and open-minded, such as when thunderemerald and I discussed Girl in the Fireplace and Moffat (before S4 started). This was before my views on Moffat got so intensely personal, but they were already tending that way, and I think it shows. I had an emotional investment in making my point, because being wrong would shake my worldview all out of proportion to the source.

Well, on the surface, at least. We get involved in fandom because there's something in a particular source material that resonates with us. In Doctor Who, that would be, about equally for me, the character of the Doctor, and the relationship between the Doctor and Rose. I find the Doctor a fascinating character--in New Who he's given a lot more depth, but even in Classic Who, I find him quite compelling. Here is someone who is highly independent, and who is so utterly determined to be himself, no matter what pressure is brought to bear on him. I love The Five Doctors, not just because I love the idea of the various Doctors meeting, but also because of the ending, when he gets appointed to be President of Gallifrey (as in, the leader of his planet, a position that would normally be considered a huge honor), and then he runs away. He RUNS AWAY. That's not who he is, and he won't be anything other than himself. It's like what One said to Susan, in his goodbye speech to her, about "going forward in all your beliefs". He lives that, and I love it.

So that's a lot of what attracts me to Classic!Doctor, but I have to admit that a large part of what attracts me to New!Doctor (basically Nine and Ten) is simply his angst and pain. Maybe it's the nurturing instinct, or maybe it's something else, but I see his pain, and I want to make it go away. I want him to be happy. And Rose very clearly made him happy.

Essentially, what I like in my pairings is people who make each other happy. It's like, I can acknowledge Doctor/Master as having an interesting and intense dynamic that would probably lend itself well to a passionate relationship, but I can't see them making each other happy, not without taking away an essential part of who that character is (like making the Master no longer a sadistic megalomaniac whose plans the Doctor has to constantly thwart). So while I can acknowledge that it's an interesting ship and I can get why people might OTP it, it's just really Not For Me.

Sometimes I get the idea that many writers (not just fic--take Joss Whedon, for example) think that happiness is boring, not worth writing about, that kind of thing. While I do think that stories need to have struggles of some sort, I want there to be a happy ending. I want the emotional investment I put into observing that story to pay off, and I want it to be happy, because--and here's a revelation--I like being happy. Occasionally I want to read something sad, but that's not very often, because frankly it's just nicer being happy.

Because of the emotional investment I put into some stories, what makes me happy is when characters are happy. What makes me unhappy is when it seems like people are arguing that those characters shouldn't be happy, or that the happiness I very clearly saw on screen was just artificial--that oh, the Doctor wasn't in love with Rose and happy during S2, she was basically just his security blanket. I mean, people can believe that if they want, but I don't want to hear about it, because it makes me question my judgment and my ability to see and interpret subtext (which, as an English major, is a big part of what I'm preparing to do for a living). This is unavoidable in certain circumstances (such as when I get a paper back with my professor's comments on it), but it's also always an uncomfortable process, and then I have to wonder if it makes me shallow to not like it. I mean, I do endeavor to learn from my mistakes, but it's much nicer to not make mistakes in the first place. XD

Another reason I don't like that kind of argument (the whole "Doctor doesn't really love Rose" and "she never made him happy" one) is because it feels like it cheapens that happiness. What I saw was very genuine, and while I do think that there was some element of security blanket there, I'm not sure why that would automatically make it an unhealthy relationship. Admittedly I have very limited experience with romantic relationships, but I would certainly like a significant other who makes me feel safe and secure, who can chase away my demons and help me through what can't be chased away. And if I lost this person under traumatic circumstances, as what happened in Doomsday, I'd grieve, just as the Doctor did during S3 and S4. The Doctor I saw in those seasons wasn't like a child who'd lost his favorite teddy bear and flailing--he was a man who'd lost the woman he was in love with, the woman who was helping him learn to live again after a terrible war.

I just can't see his happiness in S2 as artificial. I might be able to if that season had just completely glossed over their issues, making it seem like they were determined to be happy even when they really weren't, but that's not what I saw. One of the reasons I love School Reunion so much is because they do address a pertinent issue for this kind of relationship--the inevitablility of Rose leaving (in some way, whether by choice or by death or forcible separation). One of the reasons I love Army of Ghosts is for the "forever" scene, where the Doctor (the source of the issue) asks Rose how long she'll be with him, and smiles when she says forever. Those two scenes are a big part of why I see S2 as the Doctor's emotional journey in accepting that loving is worth losing.

And more, to go back into the personal realm, that theme is one reason I love Doctor Who. I think love, real love, is always worth it. This is because I think that even if you lose your beloved, you're a better person for having loved in the first place, as I think loving Rose made the Doctor a better person. Before Rose, he was reluctant to get involved with his companions' lives outside his life, but during her time with him, he grew more comfortable with "the domestic", and was then able to be open to knowing the Joneses and the Nobles. And when she was with him, she inspired him to be a better person--with her family, but also challenging him to live up to his ideals, like in Dalek and Parting of the Ways, and challenging him to be his equal, with her own ability to make decisions about her own life and whether or not she'll risk it, such as in The Long Game, Age of Steel, and Doomsday.

One reason I love Doctor/Rose so much is that I see in their relationship a lot of what I'd like to have in my own. Mutual support--she supports him in his Gallifrey angst, while he supports her in her father angst, and so on. Trust. Faith. Sexual tension and comfort with each other's bodies. Loyalty. Mutual protectiveness. Learning and growing as people from knowing each other--I talked a bit about what she gave him, and he gave her expanded horizons, and the very wonderful and empowering knowledge that she can make a difference. Equality--she assumes herself his equal, and he does the same (apart from being a bit high-handed in the finales, but he's high-handed with everyone, so that's not specific to her). And, of course, the sheer joy they get in being with and interacting with each other.

Here I project, because it's difficult to avoid doing that in something I've gotten emotionally invested in, but I can't quite separate out the element of the personal from criticism of the pairing. No, Doctor/Rose is not the healthiest possible relationship, but people are flawed, imperfect beings, and it's not possible to have a perfectly healthy relationship. There will be issues and misunderstandings--that's inevitable. But the thing about the Doctor and Rose is that they accept and deal with the issues that come up--the Doctor answers her in School Reunion when he wouldn't answer Sarah Jane, and throughout the season journeys to an emotional place where he can be happy with what Rose can give him; Rose, through School Reunion and Girl in the Fireplace, accepts that he's loved people before and will love people again, and still wants to be with him.

I know about messy, complicated TV relationships that eventually become canon--I love Mulder/Scully (X-Files) and Josh/Donna (West Wing), who respectively took seven and nine years to get together and who had mounds of repression and general "don't talk about it (whatever it is)" issues going on. Frankly, I think the Doctor and Rose are pretty damn healthy, comparatively.

But anyway, back to the projection--when people dismiss Doctor/Rose, it feels a bit like they're dismissing my idea of a good relationship. Of course they're not; most people who do that probably don't even know I exist, or would want to insult me if they did. But though I know this objectively, it's hard to suppress my gut-level reaction, which is "how can they not understand how good the Doctor and Rose are for each other? Am I just totally off in seeing and interpreting a good relationship, or is it that I've gotten what exactly is a good relationship completely wrong?" Not that what exactly a good relationship is isn't completely subjective, but there have to be some commonalities, or no one would ever be able to write about relationships and have other people be interested.

Effectively, either my view of the world and of love is skewed, or other people are wrong, and I'm much more comfortable with other people being wrong. :p This is, I imagine, why people are so protective of their ships, and why ship wars happen. It's not just a fictional relationship that's being defended--it's an entire worldview.

This doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and start telling people that they're automatically wrong if they don't ship Doctor/Rose, because while I may not understand why they believe what they do (or really care to understand, since I'm happy with my own beliefs), it's not my business to say anything. If they're as happy with their ship (or non-ship) as I am with mine, then good for them. Knowing this won't stop me from having that personal reaction to criticism of my ship, but at least I can control that.

Now it's getting late and this is a lot longer than I thought it would be, so I'm going to shut up and go to bed.

Comments

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

It's interesting seeing why you like relationships that are happy. Most of my ships (even casual ones) are the 'what if' ones. The ones where time and space are just against them but if things were different they could have been so awesome together. And usually when they are together, it's kind of fucked up.

I'm not even sure that made sense.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I have my own interest in the occasional fucked-up relationship in some of my fandoms, so I get the appeal in some cases. But the thing is, I don't think "happy" and "interesting" are mutually exclusive, so the thing I tend to like best is fics that are both.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Happy and interesting aren't mutually exclusive. But somehow I have to be in a certain mood for them and I default to ones where it's not going to work.

One of the best examples I can think of is in the Alanna series by Tamora Pierce. I love Alanna/George which is the main pairing by the end of the first quartet. But the p[airing I was really going for was Liam/Alanna and it was never ever going to work as he hates/ is scared of her magic. She would never be able not to use it as she describes it once as her sword arm. She can't not use it as it's part of who it is. But it makes me a little bit heartbroken every time I see them first meeting that it works out somehow without compromising themselves.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that Liam dies? XD But yeah, I know what you mean. I love Alanna/George, but I was sort of half-way rooting for Alanna/Jonathan as well, though it certainly wasn't going to work out between them either, when her independence is so important to her.

Looks like I'm the opposite of you. Happy is my default--I have to be in a certain mood for ones where it's not going to work. :p

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Liam dying? Pfft! Minor incovience Roger came back from the dead. And Jonathon got on my wick at times. He wanted Alanna partly to prove something. Yes he loved her but also what she represented - a big two fingers to the establishment,.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Oh, I should have touched upon the whole "happy" thing in my response, but didn't, so I'll say here real quick: I agree. I don't understand why it's so difficult for creative individuals in tvland to give us happy without boring. It's just so frustrating because happy only equates to boring because of the failure of imagination. Yes, there has to be conflict, but that can be from without often times and it MUST be balanced out WITH the happy.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I also 'ship couples that I really and truly believe would make each other happy. Because... I fall a bit in love with the characters on the shows that I watch (if I don't love the characters enough, I can't love the show). I want them to be happy. Rose and the Doctor very obviously make each other happy. And they even got to be canon (as you mention, so many shows believe that happy = boring and so bring in tons of angst).

If believing that two people who make each other happy make for a good couple puts me in the minority, then I'm fine being there (I don't believe that it does, though, excepting certain online communities). They make each other happy when they're together. They help other people and save worlds. Seriously, where is the bad?

[rynne.livejournal.com]

They make each other happy when they're together. They help other people and save worlds. Seriously, where is the bad?

Yes, exactly. I go back and forth between not understanding how people could not see it and how people could not like it--I mean, I understand intellectually, but I think if I could truly "get" it, I would think the same way. :p

[shaela]

I think there are two different kinds of shipping. There’s what we expect to happen, and then there’s what we want to happen. (Someone I knew in the Harry Potter fandom called these “canonical” and “preferential” ships, respectively.) I might not like Buffy’s relationship with Spike, but it was absolutely, 100 percent canonical.

When it comes to Doctor Who, I think it’s clear that RTD meant for the Tenth Doctor’s relationship with Rose to be seen as a romance. On the other hand, it’s also clear that he always planned to separate them, because he sees Ten’s loneliness as a fundamental part of his character. And judging by their last scene together in “Journey’s End,” they never kissed, and he never told her that he loved her. So I can understand people who don’t see the relationship as romantic, despite RTD’s intentions.

That’s the “canonical” side of things. On the “preferential” side, I just take it as read that what appeals to me won’t appeal to everyone, and vice versa. (This is fandom. You don’t need me to tell you how weird it can get.) The fact that you like Ten/Rose tells me a little bit about you, but I don’t think it tells me everything.

(And just for the record, I don’t hate Ten/Rose because I think happiness is boring.)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, I know you have your issues with Ten/Rose, and I agree with a few. There are just some that I interpret differently, and of course, different interpretations is basically the root of differences in fandom. But I think that if I could really, truly "get" why people think differently than I do, then I wouldn't be thinking differently.

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

I pretty much read this entire post and nodded at every sentence. I'm not quite sure what comment I could make other than "I agree" because you've pretty much described my exact feelings - from getting emotionally invested, to not liking debate, to happiness not being boring.

I kind of wish I had something more intelligent to comment on, but I seriously don't have anything to add! XD

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Basically, happy is good! :D

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Yes to all of this. I love seeing the Happy too -- but I'm just not used to seeing it as the Main Plot, because there's no story without conflict, and it's commonly accepted (though not TRUE) that there's no conflict if everyone's happy in their personal lives. (Case in point with the not true: Zoe and Wash. Although they were part of an ensemble cast, which is different.) I'm not sure what point I was trying to make with that, but what I actually wanted to say is that yes, D/R is one of the healthiest relationships I've ever seen in fiction, and I love them for it.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Gah. People can be essentially happy in their personal lives while having brief periods of conflict, like "War Stories" in Firefly. But then they work it out and are happy again! That's what I like best. :D

[pncwho.livejournal.com]

I will only engage in debate with someone I can trust to be polite and open-minded, such as when thunderemerald and I discussed Girl in the Fireplace and Moffat (before S4 started).

I just read through the whole debate, and I must say, I pretty much agree with you, rynne. The whole GitF thing was just...wrong, at least to me. I like your take on it. Me, I originally thought he was just letting his hormones get away with him ("thinking with the little head").

So, why do I ship the way I do? I like to see the people I like happy (yes, even fictional people). I want my real-life friends to be in happy relationships, too. I don't do schadenfreude, in fact, when my friends are unhappy, I'm unhappy. I guess it carries over into fiction, as well.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Me, I originally thought he was just letting his hormones get away with him ("thinking with the little head").

That would piss me off as well--the Doctor's not supposed to be ruled that much by his hormones! Letting his "little head" do his thinking is as much against the character I know as the double standard thing.

I like to see the people I like happy (yes, even fictional people).

Exactly! :D

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

For me, it's about consistency of theme, tone and values as presented in any fictional work. I like to watch drama with a worldview that's essentially positive, that allows for people's character development and healing, and celebrates that.

Those were the forces I saw at work in the D/R relationship. I felt it was created by a person (RTD) who believes in the same things as me. I might not like every detail of the way the two of them behaved together, but I don't have to like everything about my friend's new bloke, for example, to see how good they are for each other.

I can handle separation and loss (though I generally prefer the happy) if the parted lovers internalise what they learned from one another and go forward (after an appropriate period of mourning) made stronger, better, kinder and more hopeful by the love they shared.

I felt DW was very much on this trajectory but Journey's End failed to deliver on it. What has the Doctor (the original) actually learned? Very little, it would appear. He is still putting up barriers, pushing people away and wallowing in martyrdom. He can't even bring himself to call one of those wonderful friends we heard Sarah Jane gush on about, let alone open up to a new attachment. That's why I find the whole River Song storyline very unconvincing, and right now the Tenth Doctor isn't a character I want to watch.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I can handle separation and loss (though I generally prefer the happy) if the parted lovers internalise what they learned from one another and go forward (after an appropriate period of mourning) made stronger, better, kinder and more hopeful by the love they shared.

Well, in theory I can handle that. I'd certainly prefer it to shallow or nonexistent characterization, or hopelessness. But I so much prefer the couple getting to stay together and happy that if given a choice, I probably wouldn't watch or read something where they end up separated, even if they're made better by having loved.

I'd intended to go more into my essential disappointment with JE, but I hadn't gotten to around to it. My issues are much what you expressed in that last paragraph, but also, to go back to the "interpretation" theme in my post, it's that my essential interpretation of the Doctor is apparently different from RTD's vision. That shook my confidence a bit, even if we basically did get canon D/R. *sigh*

[arabian.livejournal.com]

First of all, I've read your thoughts here and there and would love to friend you as you appear to get down to the nitty, gritty when discussing your fandom as do I.

About this: I understand the basic thought that if some vehemently question what you saw in series two than maybe you didn't see it, but I really think that in the case of Doctor/Rose it's a different dynamic. With Mulder/Scully -- I've been in that fandom -- it was very, VERY easy for the non-shippers to declare nothing there because so much WAS subtext, so much was left for the viewer to interpret. And it was easy to say they loved one another, but they weren't in love and as easy as it was to moments here and there to prove that they were in love, it could be a tedious process and was often STILL subject to interpretation. And with Josh/Donna, they had full-fledged relationships with other people throughout most of the run.

With the Doctor and Rose, it really comes from a place (I think, for most) of not wanting to let go of the classic Who idea or simply being deliberately blind to the text. Not subtext, but TEXT. They didn't have sex or make-out, but other than that, everything about their relationship was presented completely as a love story (minus, of course, Moffat completely ignoring the arc around his episode). To ignore that is to willfully ignore the intent of the executive producer, writers, directors, actors, etc. And if that is how one chooses to view a show, why bother watching?

I dunno, I've likely gotten off point, but it just frustrates me when shippers in the Who fandom are looked down upon or told they're seeing things when in the case of the Doctor/Rose relationship, it's clearly, undeniably, no waffling, obviously presented as a LOVE STORY ... as said by all involved in creating the story. It just boggles my mind. When I finally caught up on all of series 2, 3 and the first half of series 4, I wrote this looooooooooooooooong post about the show and included a whole section on the Doctor/Rose relationship (http://arabian.livejournal.com/210368.html#cutid5) and part of what I said was this:

The Doctor loved Rose. Period. I don't care what happened in previous incarnations. I don't care if romance has never been part of the show to any degree. I know what I watched happen over the course of two seasons and I damn well know what happened in the last ten minutes of season two. He was screaming her name in an anguished cry of devastation; she was sobbing uncontrollably. THEY SENSED EACH OTHER THROUGH AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE; they did the whole touching hands through a wall ... THROUGH AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

Final scene: The Doctor was "burning up a sun just to say goodbye," Rose told him she loved him; it sure as hell seemed like the Doctor was going to tell her likewise. Once he lost contact with her, he was crying. In other words, they loved each other. It was love. As how love is seen and shown and produced and stylized on television and in film. The Doctor loved Rose. Rose loved the Doctor. Whether one wants to accept that such is not how Doctor Who worked in the past is all fine and dandy, but what's happened on new Who, what we saw onscreen? The Doctor loved Rose. Rose loved the Doctor. They loved each other. And it wasn't of the sibling sort or like father/daughter.

Anyhoo, bottom-line, good post. Good read.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

With the Doctor and Rose, it really comes from a place (I think, for most) of not wanting to let go of the classic Who idea or simply being deliberately blind to the text.

Well, I know at least a few people who came to DW through New Who. I have one friend from another fandom I've known for years, but when we came (separately, her long before me) to DW, I was quite disconcerted to find that this person I really like could think that Ten/Rose was a really unhealthy relationship. I'm sure there are many people who cling to the asexuality thing from the old series, and I can understand being reluctant to believe that their show has changed, but what I understand least is people who came to it without preconceptions and had such a different interpretation. I mean, given things like all of what you listed and more, I don't understand with more than just my intellect how people could just not see it.