(no subject)

[rynne]

I spent most of the past two days away from the internet. That felt...really rather good. Journey's End no longer makes my stomach sort of knot up--I think I've come to terms with it, even if there are parts I don't like and parts I have to fanwank. XD

And speaking of time away from the internet, tomorrow I'm going to Las Vegas with a friend. I will bring my computer, and I'm pretty sure there's some sort of internet access, but I don't know how reliable it is. I don't think I'll mind, though, since it has been refreshing. But I don't think I'll be replying to comments for a few days yet, since I still want time. Depending on internet access, it might not be until I get back, which is on Wednesday.

My summer school class ended yesterday, and I'm very sure I got an A. (Frankly, I'm astounded at how easy UNR's been.) Though what's funny is that yesterday I told my younger sister my class just ended, and she was like, "So that's why you've been asleep at night and up in the day!" I completely cracked up. I stopped being so nocturnal even before she left for Africa, but I guess she just didn't notice? XD

And because I seem to be incapable of not talking about Doctor Who lately--yesterday I watched The Caves of Androzani. I have three main thoughts:

1. I'm not sure which is worse, Peri's American accent, or the ones in Daleks in Manhatten/Evolution of the Daleks. XD Peri's was all right for most of the serial, but in the beginning, I never would have guessed that she was supposed to be American if I didn't already know it.

2. This serial is so totally a cross between Doctor Who and Phantom of the Opera. o.O (thunderemerald, maybe you'd like it? :p)

3. Okay, I could sorta see Five/Ainley!Master before now, but this made it more...dunno, obvious? Seriously, thinking about the Master as he's regenerating, even though the Master didn't even show up in this serial.... I have no interest in Doctor/Master in the usual course of things, but maybe I could get behind Five/Ainley!Master.

And because I want to talk about my ideas for post-JE fic (with some meta for background, because apparently I also can't help but meta)...


One of the reasons I'm so dissatisfied with the way S4 ended is that apparently I see an essential part of the show differently. In the JE Confidential, RTD&co babbled on about how one of the Doctor's salient characteristics is loneliness, that it's a necessary condition for the continuance of the show, etc. This boggled my mind, because I always figured it was pretty much the opposite. I mean, I've been watching a lot of Classic Who lately, and I wouldn't say that the Doctor is an essentially lonely figure there. He has definite periods of loneliness, like basically anyone else, but it's not an essential part of him.

Getting rid of Gallifrey does change things, of course. Being the last of one's species would definitely be a lonely thing, with plenty of opportunity for emo. But ever since the Lonely God phrasing and imagery started appearing, I figured the point of it was to heal that essential loneliness. My conviction of this was strengthened the more Classic Who I saw, because all the Classic Doctors I've seen so far (though note that this is only up to Five's regeneration into Six) are so far from being the Lonely God it's funny. Seriously, I think of someone trying to apply that appellation to Four, and I start laughing.

And ever since I heard that RTD was leaving after the 2009 specials, I figured RTD would be wanting to end up with a Doctor more like the ones in the Classic series, who managed to be pretty well-balanced, mentally and emotionally. I didn't think he'd bring back Gallifrey, which meant that the best way to get him to a better place, mentally, would be for him to realize how big a family he really has, take comfort in that, and continue on secure in the knowledge that he's loved. It wouldn't make up for the loss of his people, but it would have helped him.

Apparently I've interpreted the showrunner's intentions wrong, which is...well, whatever. It happens. But I still very much disagree with what RTD thinks is the best way for the show to go, and while I have no control over the show, I have no problem exploring what could have been with fic.

The problem now is that the Doctor actually believed Davros's bile, which means that, even though Sarah Jane explicitly reminded him of how many people care about him, I don't think he'd willingly draw on that. And the people who are left in this universe are (except for Donna) the ones who walked away from him voluntarily. They've never shown any sign of contacting him on a friendly (rather than professional) level, and since I'm sure they thought he'd still have Donna and Rose, they'd be less likely to try to check on him. But even if JE changed their inclinations about friendly contact, the Doctor is quite capable of shutting them down. And after Davros, he's even more likely to do just that. The only ones who have shown a consistent ability to draw him out of his shell are Rose and Donna, and he's just insured that neither can do that.

I can think of ways around what happened to Donna, but there's still the problem of her lifespan and inherent fragility as a human. Because of this, even if he did see her again with her memories restored, I'm not sure he'd be willing to listen to her, not with his Davros-reinforced shell. The way she is now, he could reassure himself that she's safe, and that reassurance is what he needs.

Which is where the fic I want to write comes into it. I won't pretend my idea's original, because I know it's not. It's still what I will find most emotionally satisfying, and I want to write it because I haven't actually seen a long version of this.

So. Immortal!Rose is probably already a cliche, but since we have so little knowledge about Bad Wolf, it's still something I can see as possible. I don't think it's the same as Jack's immortality, though--the Doctor would have known, as he knew about Jack as soon as it happened. So the way I can justify it to myself is that Jack was a step removed from the process, since he wasn't the one actually connected to the Time Vortex, and what happened with Rose is something different. The Doctor took the power from her, but there were long moments where they shared the power between them, so the Doctor might have been thinking I don't want her to die, and she might have been thinking I don't want him to be alone, and both of them were thinking that they wanted to stay together. These desires inadvertently resulted in immortal!Rose.

Before S4 started, I was planning a reunionfic where this happened, and dameruth gave me permission to use the brand of immortality in her Findersverse, where Rose's immortality comes from a connection to the TARDIS, which means that she'll live only as long as the TARDIS will--basically, only as long as the Doctor will, which neatly takes care of Rose outliving him. When S4 started, I decided to put this fic on hold pending how S4 would end, and now that I know, I'm going to adapt my reunionfic to fit with S4, but still using that idea, because I like it and I still have permission.

But unlike Jack, Rose has never died, so no one knows about her immortality yet. This is why the Doctors encouraged her to stay with Ten II in the parallel world, because they thought their lifespans would match. That illusion continues for several years, until something happens and Rose dies, then wakes up again, with Ten II knowing what must have happened. Knowing, as well, that Rose is going to end up outliving everyone she knows and cares about, including him--which he doesn't want to happen. But since he can't get rid of the immortality, he determines to get her back to Ten I, since she won't be outliving him, and Ten I will no longer have to worry about her lifespan either. And since Ten II still has all his intelligence and knowledge, he's able to refine the interdimensional cannon (THANK YOU RTD for giving me something to use to get her back to our universe, because I am bad at thinking of that kind of thing) to make it work safely even without Daleks blowing holes in the walls between universes.

Rose, of course, is totally done with him deciding what's best for her, so while she agrees to go back to Ten I, she'll only do it after she's had a life with Ten II, because she loves him too and doesn't want to leave him alone. So they live their life together, and when Ten II dies, she goes to find Ten I. Also, when she gets back to our universe, she goes to Cardiff to give RTD a smack to talk to Jack, because I am still very disappointed that that never happened. Anyway. She gets reunited with Ten I, who is still pretty messed up from Journey's End, and is torn between "yayRoseyay" and "omg I am totally poison to people I love and I don't want to change Rose", with some complicated feelings for the immortality thing.

But then they work everything out. Yay. And it's actually work, but they're both committed to it, and they end up being happy.

And! While Rose and Ten II are in the parallel universe, Ten I meets River Song, giving me the excuse to write the messed-up Ten/River fic I've been wanting to. The events of Journey's End could definitely give him the older eyes that River remarked on in SitL. So the Doctor goes through the River-period, and then Rose comes back and makes everything better. *g*

This is definitely going to be two fics, though--one that's about Rose and Ten II until she goes back to our universe, and one that's about Ten I through the aftermath of JE, meeting River Song, and working things out with Rose. My problem right now is, do I want the Ten I/Rose reunionfic to be a sequel to the Ten II/Rose life fic, or do I want the life fic to be a prequel to the reunionfic? I'm not sure which one I want to write more! XD

I do have every intention of writing these, but part of the reason I wrote here what is basically an outline is because I might need people to badger me. :p So if anyone wants to poke me occasionally about these fics, go right ahead.

Comments

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oooo! I want to read those! I actually have been really craving a screwed-up Doctor/River fic with "Journey's End" spoilers. And I really like your Rose idea.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I've also been craving a screwd-up Doctor/River fic, but no one seems to want to oblige me, so it seems I have to do it myself. :p And I'm very fond of my Rose idea. :D

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Like the sound of that. One thing I felt they hadn't covered satisfactorily was that he must be in the same incarnation when he meets RS, because she recognised him. Quite how this will play out if/when DT leaves is an interesting question, unless they're going to write in a huge gap in time at some point.

One exchange in SITL suggested that Donna's memory is fresh in the Doctor's mind when River Song meets him, and still painful.

Another interesting interpretation I've heard is that Donna should, in fact, have died, thus fulfiling Caan's prophecy, and that the Doctor has interfered with that by overruling her wishes.

The whole of JE seemed to be an agonising example of the "missing each other by inches" theme first introduced in PIC, with everyone assuming the Doctor would be okay when nothing could be further from the truth.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I assume there's going to be a gap. This is the first series finale that hasn't ended with a cliffhanger, so RTD is free to set the specials an unspecified time later.

Another interesting interpretation I've heard is that Donna should, in fact, have died, thus fulfiling Caan's prophecy, and that the Doctor has interfered with that by overruling her wishes.

I just assume now that the death is metaphorical--though Donna is still alive, the DoctorDonna isn't really anymore.

The whole of JE seemed to be an agonising example of the "missing each other by inches" theme first introduced in PIC, with everyone assuming the Doctor would be okay when nothing could be further from the truth.

Out of all the things about that ending that leave me unsatisfied, that's the biggest thing. I want the Doctor to be okay, but I can no longer trust RTD to do that for me, so I guess I'm going to have to do it myself. :p

[nic]

I really don't have any intelligent comments to make here, other than that I really enjoyed reading this! So much fun theorising and speculation.


It's weird how I can *like* the idea of River now, because it's not so much at the expense of Rose. Plus we know she dies anyway so it'll never be forever.

One thing about his 'old eyes'... I took that to mean that it was because he always knew of River's death when he met her, and part of her could see that.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, I still don't like the idea of River, because I never thought that appeared a healthy relationship, which makes me sad for the Doctor. Which is why I'm going to give him Rose back after he has to deal with River. :p

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about not liking the "DW must be the lonely god" philosophy. I would also liked to see that healing happen... until the end of this season, I honestly thought that's what Donna was there for. She could make him better, but he wouldn't be as dependent on her as he was on Rose, so the eventual loss would be okay. She could travel with him for a season or two, leave amicably, and the Doctor wouldn't be quite so destroyed at the season finale. Each season finale has left the Doctor more and more successively miserable, this fourth season being the worst because of the double-loss of Rose AND the new best mate in Donna. I think a season finale can still be exciting without ripping your heart out and kicking it into a raingutter.


Your comments about River Song reminded me of how much I hope we don't see her character return, at least with DT. I liked her story well enough (though it could have happened in season 5, after Rose's send-off, and it would have fit better), because it was an interesting concept. But what I liked about it was the idea that the Doctor was much much older than Ten is now, that we're looking at least one, maybe two or three regenerations down the line. Where maybe the Doctor, when he meets River Song for her first meeting, and when he "falls in love" (if that's what their relationship is), that because of his experience Rose he would do better and be wiser this time around... he would know enough to not push away love or keep the person he loves at a distance. He'd know not to waste time.

But if that happens in front of us on screen, then it will eventually go back to the same problem that Dr/Rose had in the framework of the show: the Doctor can't have a wife or a true love forever traveling with him. The writers went through a lot of hoops to give as much leeway as they could to the Dr/Rose romance, and had to go to the extreme lengths of twinning him to end that story with as much of a happy ending as is plausible. So how would they make it work with River? And if there is a way to make the relationship work... why wouldn't they have tried that method with Rose's character? The Doctor's smart enough to think of it.

I worry about River's return because I am concerned that they'll present the love story in such a way that it invalidates the enormous problems of structure and continuity that the Rose love story faced. If there is River/Doctor, I want it to have to address those same problems, and if it overcomes them, to overcome them in such a way that I'm not left thinking "Why didn't they do that a couple seasons ago? HELLO?"

The only way I can see it working is if the River/Doctor romance happens far in the future, not onscreen. I like that, because it means I can imagine the romance in such a way that it is in keeping with continuity and prior relationships that Nine and Ten have had with their companions. I do hope the Doctor finds love after Rose, but when he does I want it to be written right. I want it to be a compliment, rather than a competition, to his previous loves. And, a bit selfishly, I want it to be with an incarnation that didn't love Rose.


The only way I can see it working within the framework and canon set up by the new who series and its limitations is that River cannot travel with the Doctor. the Doctor can't have a wife or a live-in lover during the show, but if she traveled briefly as a companion then they separated, that I could understand. It matches the Time-traveler's Wife-style diary from the library episode, and in fact would mimic the book that way. The Doctor could pop in and out of River's life... she on a continuous timeline and him visiting her whenever. Although it's not terribly romantic, it does solve the conflict of her being with him forever like Rose wanted to be (and like he wanted Rose to be.) That's the only way I can see the relationship working... but, again, it's not very romantic, and it's hard to imagine that kind of "drop by whenever" love could lead to the intimacy which was suggested by her knowing his name.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I just saw your post (linked from the_spdn) about D/Rose and D/River, and now I'm sorta not sure how to reply to this comment, because I think we see the D/River relationship in fundamentally different ways. I think the Doctor, and this relationship, are more complicated than "obligation to the timelines", but frankly I can't imagine it was a healthy relationship, just by the way River interacted with him and talked about him. I'm really not interested in an argument, but if you're interested in why I see the relationship that way, I posted my thoughts here.

I honestly can't imagine the Doctor putting so much of himself into another relationship after Rose, but I want him to be happy, so I don't object to him getting some love in the future; it's the execution of this particular relationship that bothered me. If you can see it being good and healthy, I envy you, because I can't.

I don't like Moffat and don't intend to watch S5, so I don't particularly care if River returns or not, or how it's handled. However Moffat sees that relationship and possibly intends to write it, I'm going to write it the way I interpreted it--and be glad I already know I'm not writing to canon! :)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I'm really not interested in an argument, but if you're interested in why I see the relationship that way, I posted my thoughts here.

First thing: I'll probably check those out, but if you were under the impression that the one-paragraph rant about my view of the idea that "obligation to the timelines" was in any way directed at you, it honestly wasn't, and I'm sorry if the poor structure of my post led you to think so. That was a reaction to some other comments I've seen by other users in a community discussion, and had nothing to do with your post. I was just deciding to repost my earlier comments to you (it helps me from re-typing the same analysis opinions when I talk to someone else) and, while I was already talking about the D/Rv relationship, I decided to include that side-rant as well. If you felt personally insulted then I apologize for not making the distinction between the two sections clearer.

If you can see it being good and healthy, I envy you, because I can't.

In the sense of general optimism I'd like to think so, because I thought that's what the audience is being told to think about it (which always, of course, runs into problems when the audience-member doesn't see "healthy" by the same definition as the scriptwriter, and in this case I'm not even sure I do myself.) Mostly it's just the fact that I don't know what their relationship would be, or even if "romantic" is the way to look at it at all, but if it's so then I'm not opposed to the idea that a much older and fundamentally different Doctor would love someone else again.

I honestly can't imagine the Doctor putting so much of himself into another relationship after Rose

I vaguely think that a new incarnation means new possibilities, but I do think it'd be a long, long time. And brain hurts at the idea of it still being Ten who invests himself emotionally in someone else.

However Moffat sees that relationship and possibly intends to write it, I'm going to write it the way I interpreted it--and be glad I already know I'm not writing to canon! :)

Freedom from canon is a liberating experience! :D My head still hurts when I think about trying to label fics... how do you say "AU" when your show has a canon AU already? AAU? There's almost two canons to dodge now instead of one.

I like some of Moffat's stuff, especially season 1, but I absolutely despised Girl In The Fireplace. I liked the horror/sci-fi of the library episodes but I didn't like that in those episodes as in many Moffat eps, the one-shot female tends to overshadow the current companion.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

If you felt personally insulted then I apologize for not making the distinction between the two sections clearer.

I didn't think it was directed at me, but I do believe something related, so calling that idea the stupidest thing ever is...rather open to misinterpretation and offense. :p I think "obligation to the timelines" is a valid interpretation of the text, though I assume it contravenes author intentions. *shrugs* Everything's subjective, eh?

In the sense of general optimism I'd like to think so, because I thought that's what the audience is being told to think about it (which always, of course, runs into problems when the audience-member doesn't see "healthy" by the same definition as the scriptwriter, and in this case I'm not even sure I do myself.)

Or just that some things got lost in translation. It felt like I was being told one thing and shown something else, and I'm pretty much always going to trust what I'm being shown rather than what I'm being told, if they seem to contradict each other. Author intentions contradicting what I saw on screen is one of the main reasons I want to write the fics I described and wrote this post in the first place! :p

I vaguely think that a new incarnation means new possibilities, but I do think it'd be a long, long time.

In one sense, I'm not opposed to the Doctor loving again in the future--like I said, I want him to be happy. But the Doctor just put so much of himself into loving Rose that I have difficulty seeing him being willing to open himself up to that kind of hurt again, especially after Journey's End. Which is why I'd rather like to place the D/River relationship there, because an unwillingless to open himself to more hurt could explain quite a bit of how I interpreted that relationship.

Freedom from canon is a liberating experience! :D My head still hurts when I think about trying to label fics... how do you say "AU" when your show has a canon AU already? AAU? There's almost two canons to dodge now instead of one.

Hee, DW does like to confound us this way! (Two Tens! Labelling that is already a headache.) But I think AU is something that deliberately contradicts canon, and Pete's World and its particulars are part of canon. Exploring Pete's World would not be AU, but changing it so that, say, alt!Jackie lived would. I won't even be labelling these fics I'm going to write as AU, since they don't actively contradict the existing explicit canon. I don't think being Jossed is the same as AU, even knowing that will happen before I start writing. XD

I like some of Moffat's stuff, especially season 1, but I absolutely despised Girl In The Fireplace. I liked the horror/sci-fi of the library episodes but I didn't like that in those episodes as in many Moffat eps, the one-shot female tends to overshadow the current companion.

I enjoyed TEC and Blink, and loved TDD, but GitF, SitL, and FotD are my least favorite episodes out of all the Doctor Who I've watched, including the Classic episodes, and that kind of track record means I do not trust S5 to be something I'll like. But I think I could go all day on what I hated about Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (without once mentioning Doctor/Rose), so I'll spare you and just stop here. :p

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I'm a bad friend (or good?). I hooked my friend on DW and supplied her with episodes (she's not internet-downloading savvy), but when I gave her season 2 I conveniently left out GitF. Ooops, wasn't there! Because I deleted it from my harddrive completely.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Heh. When I hooked my friend on DW, I did show GitF, on the grounds that it was still canon even if I hated it, and she should be given the opportunity to form her own opinion. She was sensible and didn't like it. :D

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I had been trying to show her ways to acquire episodes herself, so I figured that if she really wanted it she knew how to find it. If she'd ever asked me in follow-up I would have probably helped her download it, but she just blazed on through and into season 3. :)

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

The idea sounds fascinating...and complicated. I'll definitely read it.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Hee, always nice to have people willing to read! *g*

[quiet-fractures.livejournal.com]

Everything you wrote is exactly how I'd pictured Doctor Who ending if it was a series finale. Of course it would never happen since how would they get Billie not to age and Ten has to regenerate for the show to properly end. But that is what fic is for.

OMG I so want to read what you have here.

(here via the_spdn)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you'd want to read it, but since I tend to be a slow writer, I'm not sure when I will manage to post it. :p But I've always been fond of immortal!Rose and the Doctor traveling together forever, I'm glad that I can still have that scenario, even with a bit of twisting. *g*

Only Time

[(Anonymous)]

Hey, I know its been years since you've updated ONLY TIME so I was wondering if you were ever going to? Or has it been abandoned?

Re: Only Time

[rynne.livejournal.com]

It's basically abandoned, sorry.