(no subject)

[rynne]

Because I finally managed to get the episode downloaded...


Mostly I'm angry. I have a lot of thoughts I'm not sure I'll be able to get out, but my overwhelming emotion right now is anger.

I think the basic root of my anger is that Ten hasn't learned anything. Across three seasons, I saw this beautiful character arc developing, an arc where the Doctor goes from thinking he has to be the Lonely God into discovering that, even with all his responsibilities, he can be a person too. And that he doesn't have to take all the responsibility himself, because other people will share the load.

At the end, Sarah Jane even said explicitly that he likes to think of himself as alone, but he has such a huge family really. I wanted to cheer at that, because yes. That's truth. That's what he needed to learn.

Except he didn't. Sarah Jane, Jack, Mickey, and Martha all walked away on their own, and I respect them for that--they've all done that before; they were just continuing their lives. But you know, I think all of them expected Rose to stay with him, and likely Donna as well.

And it's Rose and Donna I'm angry about, because he made such GODDAMN HIGH-HANDED DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR LIVES, LIKE ALWAYS. HE LEARNED NOTHING.

And he took everything Donna learned from her too. I get that he wanted to save her life, but she was begging him not to do it. BEGGING HIM. And he...aogdodfkjsdkidfjklgdijo. God, I'm having such a difficult time being coherent about this. He didn't let her make decisions about her own life, the way she wanted to live and the way she would have preferred to die. He thought, as he always did, that HE KNEW BEST. She grew so much, became such a wonderful person, and he took that away from her.

Ten, you bastard. And I am not saying this with fondness.

I spoiled myself before watching the episode, so I knew it was coming. I knew that he would end up alone in the TARDIS again. And I hurt for him, because I really do love the Doctor. Part of my dislike for Rose's ending came from the idea that one Doctor would get to stay with her and the other wouldn't, and I hurt for the one who couldn't have that.

But you know, after watching everything for myself, I find myself thinking "you reap what you sow". Before I saw the episode, when I just heard about what happened, I hurt for him. Now, I don't, not really.

He learned nothing. And now Donna's learned nothing as well. They're both back where they started, but rather than everything having come full circle, it feels like everything was rewound.

I can see Moffat's Doctor here. And while I suppose that's just as well, since he's taking over soon, it's not something I wanted to see in an RTD script.

I have a lot of other issues with this episode, including: half-human!Doctor/Rose, Rose and Jack, and the under-utilization of practically everyone except Donna and the Doctor. There might be more I can't think of now. There were parts I did like--in fact, I was even liking the episode, up until the end--but my anger at the end is pretty much drowning everything else out.

So there are other things I want to talk about, but I can't do it now, not when I'm still so angry. I think I'm going to sleep on it and hope I feel good enough to rationally discuss things tomorrow.

This has not thrown me out of the fandom, but one thing I know for sure: I am already plotting out my fix-it fic(s), including a more satisfying (well, for me, at least) resolution of the D/R storyline and the Doctor actually learning something.

Comments

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

I think something people are failing to take into consideration under these circumstances is that it's perhaps not that the Doctor has failed to learn anything - but that he doesn't think he deserves the happiness of being with that family-of-choice or with Rose. Which isn't to say he doesn't deserve someone shaking him so hard his teeth rattle, but it is different from him not having learned anything.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I have actually considered that, especially when watching how he left Rose behind, it felt very like he was being abrupt to hide his emotions. But if he did learn something--what was it? I didn't see him demonstrably learning anything, because part of learning is applying it to your life, and I don't feel he did that.

If the specials show he's made some changes in his life because of various events, I'll be much more at ease with this ending.

[shaela]

Mostly I’m angry. I have a lot of thoughts I’m not sure I’ll be able to get out, but my overwhelming emotion right now is anger.

I wasn’t angry a few hours ago, but I think that was just shock. I woke up a few minutes ago so angry I couldn’t think straight.

I’m more angry with RTD than I am with any of the characters. But I think that’s because none of them feel real to me anymore. (I had to look away from the screen during the kiss. That wasn’t my Rose, anymore than the kiss in “New Earth” was my Rose.)

And RTD’s the one who wrote “The Runaway Bride.” He’s the one who tricked me into thinking that the story I fell in love with wasn’t over yet.

I agree with you about the Doctor, though. This is someone I’m supposed to care about?

I am already plotting out my fix-it fic(s), including a more satisfying (well, for me, at least) resolution of the D/R storyline and the Doctor actually learning something.

I think I’d start by saying that both halves of the DoctorDonna fell apart at the same time. (In other words, Blue Suit died, and Rose and Jackie went home alone.) After that, it’d be a tossup whether I bothered reuniting Rose and the Doctor. Frankly, I think she can do better. The only reason I’d bother is because I still ship Rose/Tardis. (Which is yet another reason why I hated this episode.)

But that would mean accepting it happened in the first place.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm angry with RTD, because he could have written things differently and he didn't.

I still like Doctor/Rose, and I still want them to be together. I just wish that the Doctor had learned something!

[demeter918.livejournal.com]

I'm utterly confused about how I feel of the episode. One hand, I agree with you. The other, it's a beautifully rendered episode.

I can see why the Doctor did what he did with Donna; it would have killed her. I saw parallels with S1 BadWolf!Rose, but there was no convenient save this time around. Which really upset me; I don't know why they would choose something like this for the end of Donna's character.

But Rose; I'm trying to wrap my mind around it. Already, I'm mostly accepting of the new!Doctor/Rose pairing. But I don't understand where the devstated!Ten went. He's alone again. Rose is with a version of him in another world and he didn't give HER a chance to choose it.

That, I felt, was unforgivably cruel of him. Even if he didn't mean it that way.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I get why he did what he did to Donna; it's the way he did it that angers me. I sort of see the parallels to BadWolf!Rose, but there's a key difference--Donna was begging for him not to do it, and I saw an implicit plea in Rose's "My head...it's killing me", a plea for the Doctor to help her. But yeah, I also don't know why they would choose something like this for the end of Donna's character. *sigh*

I think Ten was still devastated; he was just trying not to show it. But yeah, I'm still angry with him for not letting her make a proper choice.

[treenahasthaal.livejournal.com]

Wow - this is a reaction that I didn't see coming. I can't share it with you. My heart just bleeds for the Dr and Donna. I can see your point, but to me he did when he thought was right and I think the idea of losing Donna completely was too much for him - he couldn't let her die.

For me I just think this episode was the best I've ever seen in all my years of Dr Who watching (and I recall watching it from no 2/3! Not that I want to give my age away!) It had everything I could have ever wished for in a Dr Who story snappy funny dialogue, action, suspense and total heart break. I actually thought it was quite beautiful in many ways. I watched it with my nine year old son and he was laughing, shrieking, hiding his eyes and then sniffling at the end. And it is his generation I'd say it was mostly aimed at.

The Rose ending was also angst ridden, and a tad confusing for her and Ten Mark 2, it would be interesting to see how that works out, but he did remind me more of Nine (as remarked upon during Confidential) in that way I think Rose will heal him. I think Rose did chose the "other half" though. It was she who kissed him after he whispered in her ear.

I'll be watching the repeat tonight on Beeb 3 to catch anything I missed - although I loved Donna pushing Sarah Jane out of the way to hug Jack! : )

[rynne.livejournal.com]

It's mostly that Donna was begging him not to. Of course he didn't want her to die, which is understandable. But the scene didn't have to play out that way--the Doctor could have explained why she should let him do this, and she could have accepted it. She could have tearfully agreed, they both could have expressed regret that this was how it had to be, but at least it wouldn't have felt like mental rape.

I'm better with how Rose ended. I wish they hadn't placed so much emphasis on how Rose needs to heal him--I want it clear that it's love that's between them, not responsibility. And I wish they made Rose's choice clearer, giving her more choice and emphasizing that she did end up picking Ten Mark II, rather than being stuck with the leftovers.

I just...didn't see the Doctor grow as a character in this episode, and that really disappoints me.

[treenahasthaal.livejournal.com]

I can understand what you are saying about his growth as a character, but I can't entirely agree that he hasn't learned anything. I think he's still smarting from the truth of what Davros said about his soul. That he fashions ordinary people into weapons and so many people die for him. He was determined at that point that Donna wouldn't die.

I don't think he needed to explain it to her after all she knew what was happening given that she had his mind in hers - he did ask her and she said she did. Donna also expressed regret saying that she had been going to travel with him for the rest of her life, she knew what he was going to do to save her, that expression of regret was her reluctant acknowlegdement. That's how I viewed it. Yes she shouted "no" until the end, I probably would have, too in that positon, but she still knew he was saving her life and it was the only way to do it. It was heartbreaking for her to go back to the Donna of old - but more heartbreaking for him than her.Perhaps he had to act that fast, to safe her life and they didn't have time to discuss it much.

I just absolutely LOVED everything about this episode. I watched it again last night and picked up on a lot more. It's funny, it's over the top (in a good way), it's great drama, there are fabulous characters, and it has classic tragedy. It has also given us fangirls/boys lots to discuss! : )

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that part of learning is applying what you learn to your own life. And instead of learning that he has family he can rely on, which is what I thought he was learning for three series, instead he "learned" what Davros said. It just seems far more a regression than a progression to me.

Donna knowing exactly what was going on made it worse for me. Saying she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him seems far more like a protest to me than an expression of acceptance--if he left her memories alone, she would be spending the rest of her life with him; it just wouldn't be very long. But see, Donna knowing exactly what was going on meant that she was making her choice in full knowledge of what it would mean, and it's still what she wanted.

I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have saved her life, becacuse I don't think he would have been able to live with himself if he hadn't. I'm just not pleased with the way the scene was written, because it felt like mental rape to me, even if he was doing it for her own good. I just wanted some acknowledgement that Donna could make her own choices about her life, and I wanted this to be her choice. I don't even think it would have taken that long--and even if it did, it's up to the writer how much time they have to save her life, so I don't think that's a good excuse.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

He did learn something. He just learned the wrong thing: what Davros told him, the "truth" of himself, that he's a destroyer of worlds who turns ordinary people into weapons.

I agree with you that what he did to Rose (and Donna, kind of) was wrong, but it was out of guilt and self-loathing. You reap what you sow, yes, but I pity him for being so fucked-up that he made those choices. He always tries to take the pain onto himself and spare everyone else, and the tragedy is that he does it even when he doesn't have to.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I suppose that's true, that Davros's "truth" is what he took to heart--it's just that's such a twist of what I thought he'd learn that I'm angry. Now that it's been a couple days, I'm not so much angry at him as I am at RTD, who wrote it so that the lesson he ended up learning is the polar opposite of the one I thought he'd learn. RTD had a grand opportunity, built up over multiple series, to give him some healing, and instead he took the opposite track. Now, like you, I pity the Doctor for being so fucked-up, and I pity him as well for having writers so determined to break him.

[madilayn.livejournal.com]

One of the things that I liked about this episode is that the Dr didn't actually learn anything! It makes him more "real" than if he makes mistakes, learns from them and is a better person.

Real life doesn't work that way - and when you consider it, the Dr is very set in his ways. He's 1,000 years old and for all the time we've known him (from 1st Dr onwards), he continually makes the same mistakes, and learns nothing. It's a particular sort of arrogance and he deludes himself into thinking that he's "above" learning from those mistakes.

I am a definite Dr/Rose shipper, and in some ways, I think that their story is very much a tragedy much like Remus/Sirius.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But the thing is, this isn't real life. It was one thing for the Doctors in the old series not to really learn anything--the old series has less emotional depth in general, and gave him a lot less scope to learn anything. But in the new series, I saw this very distinct character arc developing, and I'm angry that it ends with a giant emotional regression, rather than the progression I was expecting to see. It might be my fault for interpreting the character arc wrong, but I still see this wonderful character arc, spread out over three seasons, that didn't end in the logical spot I thought it would, and that makes me angry.

[lalaithlockhart.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who pulled out of that one with these emotions. I've been snapping at my family all afternoon after watching it and I'm still so angry and tense.

The thing is, it's exactly the kind of decisions the Doctor's been making this season that were squicking us out earlier - that anything is better than physical death. Oddly, only Jenny really seemed to penetrate his exterior this season. What does it mean if you can apparently mean so much to him, only to have him turn on you when he thinks it's your time?

:( Sorry for the ranting.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, it's less "anything's better than physical death" that's squicking me (though it did in FotD) than "the Doctor knows best, and to hell with everyone else". Gah. I was so hoping he'd learn that he's not the only person competent to make decisions in the universe, and I'm angry that apparently that's not what happened.