(no subject)
Jun. 8th, 2008 11:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneToday I went to a Renfaire up at Lake Tahoe, and it was completely awesome. My old bodice didn't fit anymore, so I got a new one, along with some other stuff. I spent...rather a lot of money, but it was worth it, and I don't expect to splurge on anything else anytime soon.
The Faire, plus the lovely chat I was in last night where a bunch of us ranted about Forest of the Dead, left me in a much better mood today. But because I apparently can't shut up even about things I don't like...
Thankfully, I've not come across any comments that said I only dislike Doctor/River because I ship Doctor/Rose, but I know other people have. I'm not surprised at those comments, since I know very well that people who like something often don't understand why other people might dislike it, and shipping is an easy answer. Still, my dislike for Doctor/River has a lot more to do with River herself than with Rose, and while I talked a bunch about this yesterday, I kept thinking about it today, and I want to get my thoughts in order.
The scene that keeps coming to mind is the one where River handcuffs the Doctor while sacrificing herself. Yesterday I ranted about how horrible it was that she made him watch her die, and today I saw a couple comments to the effect that she didn't have enough time to get him away so she couldn't really do anything else. This is possibly true, but there were other options.
The one I like best, and what could very easily have made me sympathize for River and the Doctor both, is if, instead of knocking him out, River said something like, "Hey, if you die right now, I'm not going to be able to meet you in the future, and that'll create a paradox." The Doctor would have been pretty much forced to let her go in his place, since unless something big has changed this particular attitude since Father's Day, or even Fires of Pompeii, he knows he wouldn't be able to choose one life over the rest of the universe. Then, if Moffat still wanted that conversation to happen, he could have had River ask the Doctor to stay with her, so that she wouldn't die alone. Yeah, it would have hurt the Doctor to watch her die, but at least he wouldn't have been forced, and it might even have made me like River.
Another option is that maybe Mr. Lux could have carried him away. Ten is pretty damn skinny, so Mr. Lux might well have been able to do that, and by the time the Doctor woke up, it would have been too late to get to River in time to stop her.
Or even, if Moffat was determined to do it the way he did, River could have acknowledged him. She could have said, "Hey, sorry to make you watch me die, but I didn't have time to get you away".
But she doesn't do any of that. Instead, she knocks him out with a punch--taking away his control and propagating violence with one move, both of which he'd hate. She continues to take control away from him by handcuffing him and giving him no choice but to watch her do what he would consider his job, taking the sacrifice he meant to be his. She makes him completely helpless, which is not a state the Doctor ever likes being in. Then she doesn't even have the decency to acknowledge him, his feelings on the matter, the fact that she's pushed him into two things he absolutely hates: having no control/being helpless, and watching someone die, unable to save them. She just...doesn't seem to be thinking about him here.
And actually, she doesn't seem to be thinking about him anywhere. Pretty much every time she talks about their future together, her focus is completely on her. Her smug disregard of his legitimate feelings of confusion on who she is, and his desire to understand. Her talking about how it hurts that he doesn't know her. How much he trusts her in the future, which is why he needs to trust her now. She just doesn't seem to care about his side of the issue.
She actually reminds me quite a bit of S3!Martha. She, too, was very focused on her side of the relationship. In Evolution of the Daleks, in her conversation with Tallulah about how he sometimes looks at her and is only remembering rather than seeing her, this is something that happens after she listened to him yell at a Dalek to kill him, but she's more focused on herself than how this guy she's crushing on is sorta suicidal. But Martha grew out of that, which is one reason why I like her, while River Song was selfish to the end.
There's another way River reminds me of S3!Martha, and that is how neither seem to know him, as a person. River's speech about how he could make armies run away and then open the TARDIS with a snap of his fingers (which is OMG WHY WHY WHY THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A KEY THE KEY IS AWESOME) was a lot like Martha's speeches about who the Doctor is in Family of Blood and Last of the Time Lords. They all...sorta deify him, rather than talk about how he is as a person.
Admittedly, that was necessary in LotTL, and in FotD, River's trying to convince someone that the Doctor can save them. But River doesn't really give any indications of really knowing him, and in fact gives indications that she doesn't know him well.
The Doctor made a big deal about the circumstances under which he would tell someone his name, but the effect for which it was used in this episode was basically as a password. He could easily have just told her his name in the future because he knew that she knew it in the library, not because she's more important to him than everyone else in his life he never told his name to. That is what ended up happening with the sonic screwdriver--he gave it to her for a specific purpose, to save her life (er, what was left of it), not because she's so important to him. And what's striking is that she thought it was because she's special, when that wasn't really why.
I mentioned these in other posts, but she just doesn't seem to know him very well, as a person. The only thing she could come up with to convince him to trust her was the password-like name, rather than, say, details about his personal life or habits, his likes or dislikes. And I'm still incredulous about the beginning of Silence in the Library, where she keeps disregarding his warnings and acting like they're on a date when he clearly sees this as a deadly serious matter. Any of his companions, or really anyone who knows him at all, should know better than to disregard one of his warnings. Same thing when he wants to talk to the Vashta Nerada, where she clearly doesn't trust his ability to do what he says he will. The Doctor can make Daleks and Cybermen talk to him, along with most of the other numerous dangerous species he's encountered. It's something he's very good at. Anyone who knows him should know this, yet she apparently doesn't. And she doesn't trust him. She kept wanting him to trust her, without seeming to trust him in return.
Not to mention that this kind of time-looped relationship has issues. When he does meet her in the future, how much of what he does will be because of what she told him he did? He gave her the sonic screwdriver for a non-romantic reason, and I can easily imagine that's also why he told her his name. He knows that he takes her on picnics and cries the last time they see each other--can he deviate from this without creating a paradox? The way David Tennant played what he was given, I could definitely see him doing these things out of an obligation towards the timelines, not because he's in love with her.
And this is extremely sad. I want the Doctor to be happy, not in a relationship out of obligation. It's even sad for River, who thinks he cares more about her than he does. But I think this is more likely than it being a mutually loving relationship, just because of the way that River doesn't know him. I just can't imagine someone in a real relationship with him disregarding his feelings, his warnings, and his abilities the way that River does. Nor can I imagine him happily in a relationship with someone who doesn't even travel with him.
And, even if that disregard weren't enough to make me doubt the depth and sincerity of River's feelings for him, there's the ending. I talked about this in my reaction post, but, even given that disregard, I was amazed at the lack of reaction she had to ending up as a data ghost in the computer core. Or rather, lack of sad reaction. She seemed delighted that she had her team with her, smiling and laughing and hugging them, and then warmly telling the children at the end the story. I did not notice any sort of regret, no mention of how she'd never get to be with the Doctor, or even see him, again. She just...blithely went on with her "life". That just amazed me.
I don't have any objection to the Doctor being happy in the future. What I do object to is putting him in a relationship, possibly out of obligation, with a woman who doesn't seem to trust him and his established abilities, constantly disregards his feelings, pays little attention to his warnings, doesn't seem to have been interested in living the life he loves, and easily moves on when their paths diverge. The Doctor deserves better.
Now it's late, and I'm going to bed. I've got my first day of my Statistical Methods class tomorrow!
The Faire, plus the lovely chat I was in last night where a bunch of us ranted about Forest of the Dead, left me in a much better mood today. But because I apparently can't shut up even about things I don't like...
Thankfully, I've not come across any comments that said I only dislike Doctor/River because I ship Doctor/Rose, but I know other people have. I'm not surprised at those comments, since I know very well that people who like something often don't understand why other people might dislike it, and shipping is an easy answer. Still, my dislike for Doctor/River has a lot more to do with River herself than with Rose, and while I talked a bunch about this yesterday, I kept thinking about it today, and I want to get my thoughts in order.
The scene that keeps coming to mind is the one where River handcuffs the Doctor while sacrificing herself. Yesterday I ranted about how horrible it was that she made him watch her die, and today I saw a couple comments to the effect that she didn't have enough time to get him away so she couldn't really do anything else. This is possibly true, but there were other options.
The one I like best, and what could very easily have made me sympathize for River and the Doctor both, is if, instead of knocking him out, River said something like, "Hey, if you die right now, I'm not going to be able to meet you in the future, and that'll create a paradox." The Doctor would have been pretty much forced to let her go in his place, since unless something big has changed this particular attitude since Father's Day, or even Fires of Pompeii, he knows he wouldn't be able to choose one life over the rest of the universe. Then, if Moffat still wanted that conversation to happen, he could have had River ask the Doctor to stay with her, so that she wouldn't die alone. Yeah, it would have hurt the Doctor to watch her die, but at least he wouldn't have been forced, and it might even have made me like River.
Another option is that maybe Mr. Lux could have carried him away. Ten is pretty damn skinny, so Mr. Lux might well have been able to do that, and by the time the Doctor woke up, it would have been too late to get to River in time to stop her.
Or even, if Moffat was determined to do it the way he did, River could have acknowledged him. She could have said, "Hey, sorry to make you watch me die, but I didn't have time to get you away".
But she doesn't do any of that. Instead, she knocks him out with a punch--taking away his control and propagating violence with one move, both of which he'd hate. She continues to take control away from him by handcuffing him and giving him no choice but to watch her do what he would consider his job, taking the sacrifice he meant to be his. She makes him completely helpless, which is not a state the Doctor ever likes being in. Then she doesn't even have the decency to acknowledge him, his feelings on the matter, the fact that she's pushed him into two things he absolutely hates: having no control/being helpless, and watching someone die, unable to save them. She just...doesn't seem to be thinking about him here.
And actually, she doesn't seem to be thinking about him anywhere. Pretty much every time she talks about their future together, her focus is completely on her. Her smug disregard of his legitimate feelings of confusion on who she is, and his desire to understand. Her talking about how it hurts that he doesn't know her. How much he trusts her in the future, which is why he needs to trust her now. She just doesn't seem to care about his side of the issue.
She actually reminds me quite a bit of S3!Martha. She, too, was very focused on her side of the relationship. In Evolution of the Daleks, in her conversation with Tallulah about how he sometimes looks at her and is only remembering rather than seeing her, this is something that happens after she listened to him yell at a Dalek to kill him, but she's more focused on herself than how this guy she's crushing on is sorta suicidal. But Martha grew out of that, which is one reason why I like her, while River Song was selfish to the end.
There's another way River reminds me of S3!Martha, and that is how neither seem to know him, as a person. River's speech about how he could make armies run away and then open the TARDIS with a snap of his fingers (which is OMG WHY WHY WHY THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A KEY THE KEY IS AWESOME) was a lot like Martha's speeches about who the Doctor is in Family of Blood and Last of the Time Lords. They all...sorta deify him, rather than talk about how he is as a person.
Admittedly, that was necessary in LotTL, and in FotD, River's trying to convince someone that the Doctor can save them. But River doesn't really give any indications of really knowing him, and in fact gives indications that she doesn't know him well.
The Doctor made a big deal about the circumstances under which he would tell someone his name, but the effect for which it was used in this episode was basically as a password. He could easily have just told her his name in the future because he knew that she knew it in the library, not because she's more important to him than everyone else in his life he never told his name to. That is what ended up happening with the sonic screwdriver--he gave it to her for a specific purpose, to save her life (er, what was left of it), not because she's so important to him. And what's striking is that she thought it was because she's special, when that wasn't really why.
I mentioned these in other posts, but she just doesn't seem to know him very well, as a person. The only thing she could come up with to convince him to trust her was the password-like name, rather than, say, details about his personal life or habits, his likes or dislikes. And I'm still incredulous about the beginning of Silence in the Library, where she keeps disregarding his warnings and acting like they're on a date when he clearly sees this as a deadly serious matter. Any of his companions, or really anyone who knows him at all, should know better than to disregard one of his warnings. Same thing when he wants to talk to the Vashta Nerada, where she clearly doesn't trust his ability to do what he says he will. The Doctor can make Daleks and Cybermen talk to him, along with most of the other numerous dangerous species he's encountered. It's something he's very good at. Anyone who knows him should know this, yet she apparently doesn't. And she doesn't trust him. She kept wanting him to trust her, without seeming to trust him in return.
Not to mention that this kind of time-looped relationship has issues. When he does meet her in the future, how much of what he does will be because of what she told him he did? He gave her the sonic screwdriver for a non-romantic reason, and I can easily imagine that's also why he told her his name. He knows that he takes her on picnics and cries the last time they see each other--can he deviate from this without creating a paradox? The way David Tennant played what he was given, I could definitely see him doing these things out of an obligation towards the timelines, not because he's in love with her.
And this is extremely sad. I want the Doctor to be happy, not in a relationship out of obligation. It's even sad for River, who thinks he cares more about her than he does. But I think this is more likely than it being a mutually loving relationship, just because of the way that River doesn't know him. I just can't imagine someone in a real relationship with him disregarding his feelings, his warnings, and his abilities the way that River does. Nor can I imagine him happily in a relationship with someone who doesn't even travel with him.
And, even if that disregard weren't enough to make me doubt the depth and sincerity of River's feelings for him, there's the ending. I talked about this in my reaction post, but, even given that disregard, I was amazed at the lack of reaction she had to ending up as a data ghost in the computer core. Or rather, lack of sad reaction. She seemed delighted that she had her team with her, smiling and laughing and hugging them, and then warmly telling the children at the end the story. I did not notice any sort of regret, no mention of how she'd never get to be with the Doctor, or even see him, again. She just...blithely went on with her "life". That just amazed me.
I don't have any objection to the Doctor being happy in the future. What I do object to is putting him in a relationship, possibly out of obligation, with a woman who doesn't seem to trust him and his established abilities, constantly disregards his feelings, pays little attention to his warnings, doesn't seem to have been interested in living the life he loves, and easily moves on when their paths diverge. The Doctor deserves better.
Now it's late, and I'm going to bed. I've got my first day of my Statistical Methods class tomorrow!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 10:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 10:47 am (UTC)For awhile yesterday, in a fit of insanity, I was rewatching the Confidential and noting down interesting stuff that people were saying. I no longer have those quotes, because I decided that was excessively masochistic even for me, but I do remember the director saying something about River "wearing the pants" and that freaking the Doctor out. Although the director made that sound like a good thing. *blink* OK, then.
She actually reminds me quite a bit of S3!Martha.
I came to this conclusion, too, although I came away liking Martha a whole lot more in comparison. Especially since she did walk away in the end.
They all...sorta deify him, rather than talk about how he is as a person.
Yes. I likened this to someone who "knows" say, Brad Pitt, because they've read or seen all his interviews. They don't really know Brad, they know of him. But they don't really know what makes him tick; they just know the public face that he presents. That's the feeling I got from River, that she only knew the Doctor's public face. Which is really kind of sad.
can he deviate from this without creating a paradox?
Not unless he a) clones himself somehow, or b) hires someone to portray his next regeneration, although even there, it really did seem like she knew Ten, and not another incarnation. Which sucks, because it means that the Doctor is forced to go through with this parody of a relationship.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 11:56 am (UTC)Honestly, out of everything in these two episodes, this was the only thing that could make me soften to her. I feel sorry for her. She doesn't know him. She has this whole LIFE built up in her head with him, much like poor Reinette crushing on him since childhood, when the reality is, he has to be there to ensure the timeline is preserved. The really sad part is that thought doesn't even occur to her. She sacrifices herself because she "loves" him (I'd agree with the S3!Martha=River assessment) and doesn't even stop to think he's only been with her all that time because of events in The Library.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:19 am (UTC)What. *blinks as well* Wearing the pants is one thing. Completely taking control away is something else entirely. The Doctor was rather entitled to freak out here.
I came to this conclusion, too, although I came away liking Martha a whole lot more in comparison. Especially since she did walk away in the end.
Yes. Martha had a whole character arc, where she grew and changed, and had a great many facets to her personality. River...didn't. I got the selfish impression of her that I did because that was mostly what was presented to us, and I can't say that about Martha.
That's the feeling I got from River, that she only knew the Doctor's public face. Which is really kind of sad.
It's extremely sad. And what's also sad is that there's this character who I'm sure the writer wanted me to like, and all I ended up with was a mix of dislike and pity. There was obviously a whole lot lost in translation.
Which sucks, because it means that the Doctor is forced to go through with this parody of a relationship.
It's horrible. The Doctor has to prepare her, cultivate her, into this person who will sacrifice her life for his. What is that going to do to him? Even if he does fall in love with her (which I don't think is likely, but if), then he'd still have to live with knowing exactly how she'll die, knowing that the most he can do to save her is to upload her consciousness into a machine--not much consolation. No matter what, it seems like a relationship designed to gut him, which just sucks so much.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 02:21 pm (UTC)And maybe because, having met her, he had also realized that that really was the only way that he'd trust her enough back in the library.
But, yeah, that's the vibe that I ended up getting. She never got to know the real Doctor. And that's a shame for both of them.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 07:43 pm (UTC)I don't have any objection to the Doctor being happy in the future. What I do object to is putting him in a relationship, possibly out of obligation, with a woman who doesn't seem to trust him and his established abilities, constantly disregards his feelings, pays little attention to his warnings, doesn't seem to have been interested in living the life he loves, and easily moves on when their paths diverge. The Doctor deserves better.
Word. It's hard for me to see this as a "love of his life" kind of deal when we know that he's obligated to do it. It's *very* dark - he basically has to make this woman care enough about him in the future to make her willing to sacrifice her life on his behalf. That's not hopeful. That's a burden he has to carry.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 08:38 pm (UTC)He gave her the sonic screwdriver for a non-romantic reason, and I can easily imagine that's also why he told her his name. He knows that he takes her on picnics and cries the last time they see each other--can he deviate from this without creating a paradox?
This just… squicks me. There's no other way of putting on it. Neither person in their relationship is truly consenting to it. It's effectively like a forced marriage and a complete sham. Even if they loved each other (and I'm not convinced of that because of their interactions), there's still no element of choice or control in it.
The happy-data-ghost, I can't see as anything other than Charlotte manipulating reality to suit the life she wants. Which is also icky, because River is trapped there.
I don't like River, but I really pity her.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-12 05:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-14 06:06 am (UTC)The Doctor made a big deal about the circumstances under which he would tell someone his name, but the effect for which it was used in this episode was basically as a password. He could easily have just told her his name in the future because he knew that she knew it in the library, not because she's more important to him than everyone else in his life he never told his name to. That is what ended up happening with the sonic screwdriver--he gave it to her for a specific purpose, to save her life (er, what was left of it), not because she's so important to him. And what's striking is that she thought it was because she's special, when that wasn't really why.
I was a bit disappointed at the name-dropping thing on the whole, because I thought that it diminishes the mystery of the character and the entire multi-decade series. If no one knows the Doctor's name, it's simpler and cleaner and more mysterious. Or, if anyone did, it ought to have been the Master.
I can easily see him giving her a sonic screwdriver to preserve the timeline, but whether or not that's the *only* reason or not seems like reaching to me. My mind keeps going back to the fact that we really can't and won't know. And I definitely disagree that he'd have an entire relationship with someone out of obligation to himself. For good or bad writing, the intimacy and weight of his real name has been so built up in mystery that I can't picture a scenario where he'd say it to someone he didn't completely trust (romantically or platonically or otherwise). He could figure out other ways to do it, if the scriptwriters decided such a change was necessary. I don't think that kind of rigidity in a paradox is an unbreakable law in this show, since they "adjust" previously spoken rules whenever it's convenient for the plot.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-23 05:23 am (UTC)I don't think the relationship is completely out of obligation--I think it's more complicated than that. And I have no objection to the idea that he trusts her. He trusts a lot of people. I just don't think trust is enough to tell someone his name--but trust, and the knowledge that that's what he did in the past, might be.
I just keep going back to the way she doesn't seem to know him. If he trusted her enough that he could tell her his name and give her a sonic screwdriver for nothing deeper than the surface reason (they're in love), then why doesn't she demonstrate better knowledge of him? I see no evidence that she knows him better than, oh, Grace. If they really are involved (much less married), then for her to understand him so poorly, he must have been deliberately keeping her at a distance, which doesn't exactly point towards a happy relationship.
My mind keeps going back to the fact that we really can't and won't know.
Exactly! So you are free to have your interpretation and I am free to have mine. :)