(no subject)

[rynne]

Yesterday I went over to velesia's and made her watch "Fear Her". Mwah. Probably not the best introductory episode, but the other ones I had were Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, Love and Monsters, and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. Out of all those, Fear Her is definitely better introductory material. Plus, flirty! She said she thinks the Doctor is cute (looks and personality), though as that's clearly what the episode is about, she got the gist. *g* (Oh, Vel. You should be glad I had this disc, rather than season 3, on hand. He's not very cute, personality-wise, in that season.)

We were also going to make snickerdoodles. Except we started pretty late, and by 11:30 the batter wasn't done chilling, so we decided to hell with actually baking the cookies, we could eat the dough! So we did, and it was good.

I got the DW S2 Confidentials today. There were also David Tennant's Video Diaries, and I squeed through much of that. How sexy does he look with his glasses? And stubble! And just, you know, all the time! And he kept licking his lips. :D He also seems like a real sweetheart, and I totally wouldn't have minded if they'd gone on a lot longer than they had.

How many of the S2 Confidentials are actually worth watching? 'Cause I watched all of the S1 Confidentials, but half of them (or maybe more, I forget) were technical stuff I wasn't really interested in. I want talking about the characters/plots, plzkthnx. Or, on the other hand, lots of David Tennant.

Now, O Wonderful Flist, I need your help. I am trying to watch .avi files on QuickTime, but they won't play! My computer is completely up-to-date, software-wise, so I have no idea what the problem is. It's just, I download something, but when I try to play it, I get nothing but a blank screen. QuickTime keeps telling me there's a component I need to download, but I've downloaded it twice and nothing happens. I have no idea what's going on or how I can fix it. Maybe I shouldn't even be bothering trying to watch .avi files with QuickTime, but in that case, I don't know what else I can use.

Help?

eta: And why can't I find any good icons of the TARDIS? Gah. *frustrated*

Comments

[deaka.livejournal.com]

I've never used QuickTime for .avi files, so I'm not sure what the problem would be there. I usually use VLC media player, a free player that will play just about any format without having to download additional codecs. You can download it from the website - http://www.videolan.org/vlc/.

Hope that helps...

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'll try that, thanks!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Hey, it's working! Thanks! :D Now I can finally watch Torchwood S2...

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I'm tending to use Girl in the Fireplace or The Christmas Invasion as an intro episode. Fear Her just makes me gag a little too much, despite all the fun flirtation.

(Re: video diaries... omg those scenes with just the closeups of him in glasses? SHIVER. GLEE. WHUMP. That last one was me falling on the floor, repeatedly.)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, of all the episodes I had available, Fear Her was the best. The episode I would use as an introduction, given a choice, is "Rose". 'Cause, you know, it's the introductory episode of the new series, and also my first episode. *g*

Hee! SHIVER. GLEE. WHUMP is about right! Mmmmmmmmm... ;)

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I really just don't like Fear Her that much. Meh.

I'd use Rose too, except usually when I'm introducing people to the series, my first point of interest is "THERE'S THIS REALLY HOT GUY NAMED DAVID TENNANT" etc....

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Hee. I am shallow. I watch it for the flirting. *g*

Well, see, I find Christopher Eccleston really sexy, so pretty much no matter which episode of New Who I watch, I win. :D And I have this minor obsession with starting from the beginning, so if I actually had all the DVDs, I'd always start from "Rose", no matter how hot David Tennant is. It's like, we'll get to him later, right now it's important to watch these characters develop into the people they are in TCI (though I guess GitF would be exempt from this, since character continuity isn't really present there), to understand everything that happens.

But, like I said, minor obsession. :p This is why I've got Classic Who in my Netflix queue. XD

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Classic Who in the Netflix queue. I love it when you rhyme. ;)

Yeah, normally I'm all about canon continuity too -- which is why, even though Tennant was my reason for watching Who in the first place, I started with season 1. But so far I haven't really gotten the chance to turn anyone into a hardcore fan; my experience has been more along the lines of proving to people that no, this isn't a silly show, and yes, it is worth your time. So I just start with my favs.

With the exception of my ex-roomie, actually. I told her I was writing fanfic, showed it to her without her having seen the show, and THAT was somehow enough for her to start on season 1. That was just cool.

(And dude, I'm shallow too. Flirting would be the ONLY reason I'd watch Fear Her again!!)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, see, my top three are all season one. My favorite episode of the entire series thus far is Parting of the Ways, which, aside from being the second half of a two-parter, is the season finale, and so not exactly the best introduction. Then there's The Doctor Dances, but again, second half of a two parter. Which leaves Rose--my third favorite episode as well as the start of the series--so that works out great.

Nine is actually my favorite Doctor. I love Ten, and I love Tennant, but I find season one in general, and Nine's arc in particular, just so, so beautiful, and as close to perfect as TV can get. I would have loved more Eccleston (it actually took me a bit to warm up to Tennant, despite teh pretty), but I can't regret the circumstances of his character's departure.

The friend I showed Fear Her to is actually rather fandomy--she reads fic and draws art, and she's always up for some good HP discussion, and it's great. I wanted to show her this show I fell in love with, partly because I want company in my squee and partly because I think she'd like it, but one of the reasons I chose Fear Her (apart from it being one of the only episodes I actually had :p) is because I wanted to show her the Doctor/Rose relationship, which is one of the reasons I love the show.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, fair enough! I know a lot of people who took a while to warm up to Tennant -- and hey, I totally get that. I just... I dunno. Maybe it was because I'd been anticipating him (and didn't see the show till half my flist was already in love with him), but whereas it took me several episodes to become invested in Eccleston ("Dalek" was the first one that really got me), Tennant hooked me right away. Kinetic energy, maybe... or just that LOOK in his eyes when he sat up in bed with the sonic screwdriver in his hand... I don't know. And obviously that wouldn't've been possible if Eccleston hadn't already made me love the Doctor. So hey. But still. Tennant, man.

You have great favourite episodes! Parting of the Ways and The Doctor Dances are among my favourites, too... though in terms of all-around favs, I think it's still too early to say! I'll have to see which ones stick in my mind the most, I think. Aside from the two above, the ones I keep going back to rewatch are School Reunion, Girl in the Fireplace (yeah, yeah, I know), Doomsday, Family of Blood (omg with the crying), Blink, and The Sound of Drums.

Okay, I totally get showing off Fear Her now. Know thine audience!! Well done. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Before Doctor Who, I paid pretty much no attention to actors. They never interested me as much as the characters did. The Doctor, the way Eccleston played him, hooked me in right away, so Ten jarred a bit with me because I missed Nine. I didn't actually start being interested in Tennant as himself until I found dwrewatch, started reading other people's recaps, and really noticed what a gorgeous smile Tennant has.

Future eps are going to have to be absolutely blow-me-away amazing in order to surpass Parting of the Ways in my eyes. At some point I really need to do a post about how much I love it. I've only seen it three times, but every time it just gets me.

Sigh. Now I am frustrated anew. My twin's the one who got me into DW, when she got the DVDs for Christmas, but now she and her DVDs are in another state, so when I want to rewatch, I have to wait for Netflix. I've only seen S3 once, and part of me is hesitant to watch it again because Martha doesn't really interest me, but another part really wants to, because the Doctor is so compelling. Hmmmm.

Just out of curiousity, what strikes you about Girl in the Fireplace? I don't like it, but I got my issues with it out in another post, and I never hated it the way others I know do.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I should check out that comm....

I'm usually far more interested in characters than actors too (I mean, I come from the HP fandom, where characters are EVERYTHING and actors are... meh... as you know!) -- but my interest in Tennant wasn't from a particular fandom. My friend spent a semester in London in 2003 or so, and since we're both theatre geeks, she'd rave to me about things she saw over there. She came back absolutely STUNNED by this play called The Pillowman, starring some guy named David Tennant, who was apparently the most mindblowingly amazing actor she'd ever seen on a stage.

Next: the GoF movie, where I had that moment of "Whoa, why is Barty Jr in the opening scene"... followed immediately by "Wait, no, WAIT, why is Barty Jr really attractive? Wrong wrong wrong!" But in those few scenes he had, he GOT me. Something about the light behind his eyes. Something. I dunno. But I looked him up, and voila! That guy from that play. Kept an eye out for his name ever since. Then he started showing up in icons all over my flist, and I found out he was in Who -- which I really didn't want to watch, due to it being that silly show that my dad used to watch.

Then my friend Meg started making me watch it, promising that even if I didn't care for the premise or the characters, I'd have sexy Tennant to look forward to. But don't worry, she said, you WILL care.

So that's where I'm coming from. :) Wow, that was a ramble.

I don't own my own DVDs either, so I feel your pain. I'm seriously thinking about splurging though... it may just be worth it....

Girl in the Fireplace, hmm. Mostly I like the romance of it, and the inherent sadness, and the way it made Rose look at the Doctor. I mean, she had her moment of jealousy in School Reunion, but that ep was also the first time she realized how often he loses people, so by the time GitF happened, it was interesting to see her hang back and watch a love-and-loss happen from beginning to end. Plus, it was the first ep that really got me thinking about what love means to the Doctor. I wrote down some of those thoughts in that huge-ass post I made a few days ago, but I didn't really get to address the different KINDS of love there are in his world. Defining them doesn't matter, as much as realizing how fluid they are, and how much they overlap each other. I think Rose realized that a little bit, even understood. So it was a huge scoop of character for both of them.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard of David Tennant until Who. I mean, I watched GoF back when it came out, but I didn't even remember David Tennant was in it until I heard people talk about his roles besides Ten. XD Now I want to see other things he's in, but Netflix doesn't really have either Casanova or Blackpool, so...Woe!

I kept seeing people in love with Who on my flist, but I didn't know much about it, and my minor obsession with watching from the beginning reared up again and for some reason made me think that I needed to watch from the beginning (as in, 1963) to get everything. XD But Twin got it for Christmas, and we have pretty similar taste in TV shows, so I agreed to watch...and the rest is history. *g*

Mostly I like the romance of it, and the inherent sadness, and the way it made Rose look at the Doctor.

I can see that--but then I'll have an Issue to counter each of those. :p Sometimes I think GitF was well-placed, chronologically--there's School Reunion, where Rose is told how the Doctor loses people, and the very next episode she's shown it. She gets to put into practice her promise not to leave the Doctor despite the pain. I think GitF mostly does well as a Rose episode. I do still have a bit of a problem with her, but mostly it's the Doctor I can't understand, and considering the Doctor's my favorite character, I'm sorta left scratching my head and just not really wanting to watch the episode again.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Oooh. Can't say much about Blackpool, since I'm still downloading it in pieces myself... but you must get Casanova if you can! I just broke down and got a copy from Amazon. It is SO CUTE!

Oddly enough, I actually felt that I understood the Doctor a little bit more after GitF. After School Reunion, I started thinking about how (and if) he deals with human romantic love at all. And I just don't think he knows HOW. Look at that last conversation he has with Sarah Jane before she tells him to say goodbye. He didn't even think to ask if she's with anyone. She tells him in no uncertain terms that nobody will ever top him, and she's been alone ever since. He sort of stands there awkwardly, not knowing what the hell to say, until she tells him to say goodbye, and he can slip back into the familiar territory of Squishy Platonic Hugs.

I think he understands love in a very broad sense of the term -- he loves the whole universe, everything collectively and many things/people individually (obviously not all). If he didn't, how could he have kept traveling and discovering and living for as long as he has? But romantic love, specifically human love, eludes him, because of the fleeting nature of human lives. He gets invested, and they leave or they die -- so better not to open your heart(s) more than you have to, right? Rose seems comfortable with that. She's so content to have that amazingly intimate friendship, because she understands the foreverness of him, and how there's no need to rush things. Martha's so intent on seeing him from a human "must hook up now" perspective, that she misses the opportunity to connect in that way.

But then you have Reinette, who got a peek inside his mind and, clever as she is, not only understood that he was lonely, but understood the precise kind of loneliness that he lives with -- and, most importantly, understood that simple human contact is the closest anything ever comes to healing him -- especially in Ten's body, which is so very, very physically oriented. So she gives him what she can. I assume it's sex, although she could very well have meant literal dancing! (With castanets, apparently.) She knew exactly how to tap into the sort of love he craves without understanding, but she did so without a promise of a lasting relationship -- that night, after all, she was hooking up with the king for the first time. So he, knowing that this had no chance of being a lasting thing, accepted her offer and had fun fun fun!

I did scratch my head a bit about him leaving Rose and Mickey on the spaceship... but The Satan Pit explained that. He believes in Rose, and he always has. She ABSORBED THE TIME VORTEX FOR HIM, for crying out loud. I don't think for a second that he actually thought he'd be trapped in 18th century France. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Aww! I am really wanting it, but I don't want to buy something if I'm not sure I'll want to keep it. Hmmm.

I like your interpretation of GitF, though mostly in the sense that "I want to believe it's like that". :p I won't shove my issues with the episode all over you, though--I liked the episode until I read other people's issues, and I don't want to taint your liking of it.

Though I will say one thing--I never had a problem with him leaving Rose and Mickey on the spaceship. Honestly never occurred to me that he wouldn't be able to get back even without the fireplace. I think The Impossible Planet explains it even more, because that's how he reacts to the idea of losing the TARDIS. I do think he believes in Rose, but the TARDIS is a lot more permanent than Rose is. He'd never be all right with not being able to get back to it, so since he's so relaxed in GitF, I figured he knew he'd get back even before Reinette showed him the fireplace. He wouldn't even have had to wait three thousand years--it's not like there weren't different incarnations of himself all over Earth in various time periods (the Boston Tea Party and the Reign of Terror, to name the two closest) that he could have bummed rides from. :p So yeah, that was one of the few things in that episode that never left me scratching my head.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Taint, schmaint! I'd love to hear your issues with the episode! I wouldn't be a true fan if I wasn't open to some serious character discussion, would I?

I actually did go back and read your entry from not too long ago, when you rewatched that whole disc. And basically, what I'm getting from that is (a) you didn't like Reinette's personality, and (b) it was almost like he was cheating on Rose (very very simplified version of what you said).

I totally get the personality issues -- she was indeed very abrasive, but that's part of why I can understand him liking her. Because, let's face it, he's a different side of the same coin. He assumes himself into leadership positions wherever he goes, and it seems that romance is the only area where he DOESN'T take the lead (or else he'd've been all over Rose a long time ago) -- because he doesn't know how with humans, or he doesn't feel comfortable, or the life-span thing, or whatever. Probably all of the above. So it makes sense to me that he'd be attracted to someone who filled that niche, as Reinette did. No, it's certainly not the Great Love that he has with Rose, but it's love of a certain kind. The kind of love that comes from mutual understanding. A connection.

As far as his love of Rose goes... I have about ten different opinions on this, and they mostly contradict each other. One is something along the lines of him realizing how much Sarah Jane loved him, realizing that Rose is headed along the same path, feeling scared and trapped, and proving to himself that he's still free. (I guess that one makes him kind of a dick.) Another is that he doesn't yet recognize his love of Rose as THAT kind of love -- or he knows but won't admit it, and therefore assumes that he's free. (Less of a dick.) The one I like best is that because of their immortality, Time Lords just see love differently, maybe less exclusively than humans do. I really want to check this theory against older canon, to see if there's anything to support me here, but if you could live to quadruple digits, what are the odds you'd really stay with someone for the entirety of that lifespan? Not very good, probably. Do they HAVE exclusive relationships? Why even bother? I'm not saying I think Time Lords are sluts or anything (although, hey, fun fic!), but it seems to me that for people who can see the whole of space and time and how ephemeral everything is, the idea of love might be a more... fluid one. Does that make ANY sense? Oy, I suck at explaining things.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

This comment is way too long. Time to split in two!

Well, I have more issues than that. That post was what I was thinking upon immediate rewatch, but then I read other people's reviews and have other thoughts, and while some of them are positive (mostly inspired by your interpretation!), most of them are negative. Anyway, here, have more of my issues. :p

I think you have a point about the Doctor and human love vs universal love. I'd just have a lot easier time buying him loving her (whether or not he was in love with her) if it lasted beyond this episode. But then Rise of the Cyberman starts with him laughing and telling stories and being possessive of and focused on Rose. I can sort of explain that away with this being just after School Reunion where he's still in the habit of trying not to think about people after they're gone, which makes sense. But I don't like having to think of an explanation--the show should be doing that for me.

A lot of what gets me about this episode is the undertones. First there's the exchange where the Doctor says that yeah, Reinette and the Queen actually get along really well, and dismisses it by calling France "a different planet", which sets up that it's all right for one man to have two women. Then there's the two old-married-couple exchanges--"No, you're not keeping the horse", "But I let you keep Mickey!" and "Look what the cat dragged in. The Oncoming Storm", "You sound just like your mother". They're funny and I like them, but I'd like them a lot more if they weren't in an episode that pretty much places Rose as the Doctor's wife and Reinette as his girlfriend. When Rose and Reinette have their talk alone, and they get along, with Rose even liking her--on one hand, I am so proud of Rose right there, but on the other hand, the implications drive me crazy. "King's wife and King's girlfriend" all over again, except this time it's "Doctor" instead of "King", but everyone's all right with it. And in the end, the Doctor seems to fully intend to have Reinette on the TARDIS too, though she died before that could happen. And the implication is that this is all just fine and dandy, and how tragic for the Doctor that he couldn't! Not to mention the fact that Madame de Pompadour is beautiful, well-educated, extremely accomplished, and practically designed to give Rose a complex about not being "enough" for the Doctor. And thanks to Steven Moffat's interviews, I doubt I'll ever be able to separate those implications from the actual episode. It's male fantasy, not my Doctor, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Plus, I think Reinette's way of "knowing" him was cheap, presumptuous, and disrespectful. The Doctor's telling her how to keep memories private--"think of a closed door"--and she just walks right into his mind, without a care for his privacy? That, combined with her laughing over the death of the king's previous mistress and her condescension to Rose, means that I just can't like her. I do think she honestly cared about the Doctor, and wanted to assuage his loneliness (if only for a little while), which gives her some points, but on the whole, she's walking Do Not Want! I understand about how he could be attracted to someone who took the lead in the romance, but how she did it really turns me off. I guess he was just so happy to have someone in his mind again, that mental connection, that he didn't mind that she basically violated his privacy, but I can't look on that action positively. I try to look at it from the Doctor's point of view, because he didn't seem like he minded, but for a man who constantly keeps himself emotionally closed off, I'm not sure whether his reaction is OOC or not. Well, at least I can explain it. *sigh*

[rynne.livejournal.com]

And I can't explain Ten's almost casual disregard for Rose in this episode. Okay, I can buy his attraction to Reinette, especially in your view, but this is a guy who's been nearly constantly focused on Rose since The Unquiet Dead. I think he knew long before Parting of the Ways that he was in love with Rose, but that episode proved that she loved him back, which is why he regenerates into bouncy, babbly, happy-go-lucky (in S2) Ten. In both New Earth and Tooth and Claw, he does his own thing (visiting the Face of Boe, dinner with Queen Victoria), but he still thinks about Rose. Even if he doesn't quite understand how to properly be in love with a human, and doesn't know how to be in a committed relationship, it seems to me like his focus sort of reveresed from Rose to Reinette, and even given an infatuation, that just doesn't make sense to me. The rest of the season emphasizes that, in his mind, Rose Comes First. That seems to have gone away here.

I really want to check this theory against older canon, to see if there's anything to support me here, but if you could live to quadruple digits, what are the odds you'd really stay with someone for the entirety of that lifespan? Not very good, probably. Do they HAVE exclusive relationships? Why even bother? I'm not saying I think Time Lords are sluts or anything (although, hey, fun fic!), but it seems to me that for people who can see the whole of space and time and how ephemeral everything is, the idea of love might be a more... fluid one.

I've thought about this myself, actually. First there's the long lifespan, but then you throw regeneration into the mix, where appearance and personality shifts and you don't know what you'll end up with--exclusive relationships could easily not survive that kind of thing. So on the one hand, I could buy Time Lords just not being completely exclusive.

Except, you know, problems. :p First, after this episode ends, he's back to being bouncy and cheerful and focused on Rose, with no on-screen indications he ever thinks about Reinette again. Second, long lifespan does not mean less exclusive relationships--how many other books/movies/etc have people with long lifespans who stay with one person throughout? Look at Lord of the Rings--how long have Celeborn and Galadriel been together again? Which is not to say that Time Lords have to be that way, but it would not be unprecendented. Then there's Jack--look at Utopia, where it's clear that, over a hundred years after the Doctor and Rose abandoned him, he still loves both of them. Jack's not a Time Lord either, but he does show that long lifespans do not have to interfere with lasting love, in the context of the show. Not to mention that Rose is human, and doesn't have that long lifespan--I don't think it's too much to ask that, if they actually commit to a relationship, he be exclusive for eighty years or so, however long she has left? And I know I'm the one who brought up regenerations, but both Nine and Ten love Rose, and she loves both incarnations, so I don't think it's a total stretch that they keep being able to love each other and want to stay together.

The way I see the Doctor's love for the universe is more like the Jedi Order of the SW prequels. They love all things, have compassion for all things, but don't form specific attachments. The Doctor's like that--any attachments he forms, he's able to let go of when the companion wants to move on. Except for Rose, and the way he feels and some of the things he does after losing her are perfect examples of why he didn't let himself form such deep attachments before.

But given that I see the Doctor as like the Jedi, especially in terms of universal love vs human love, I just don't know where to fit Reinette. Oh, continuity, please come back...

I think I might actually have more issues with the episode, but this is long and disjointed as it is, and I can't think of anything else. :p Sorry you asked yet? *g*

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Mmm, okay, I think I'm more in tune with your issues now -- it's less about the episode in and of itself, but how it works in the greater context of the canon arc. And, yeah, I get that. I did wonder why he never talked about Reinette again, but not any more than I wondered why he (or Rose) never brought up Sarah Jane again. But yeah, the continuity there is a bit odd, as is the "focused on Rose" issue that you mentioned.

Although, the latter is easier for me to believe -- I honestly never thought of it as OOC. You mentioned in that entry that it might be something of a celebrity-crush, and that was actually the first impression that I got. Someone straight out of the history books, come to life right in front of you, as intrigued by you as you are by them? Come on, that's SO COOL! Were I the Doctor, I'd've been a stuttery mess of "omg heehee she kissed me," too. I dunno. I see the point, and totally understand where you're coming from, but it just doesn't bother me. Maybe I'm just really, reeeeally attached to the idea of fluid love/sexuality (in theory and fiction, of course; having actually never had a boy- or girlfriend before, I've no idea whether it'd work in practice!) so I'm smoothing over problems in my mind, where any normal person might go "Wait a minute...."

Though you make a good point about the "king's wife and the king's girlfriend" parallel. I'd honestly never thought of that before, and I wonder if it was intentional. I've never read the Moffat interviews, either -- should I? Or will I forget how much I worship his writing (HELLO BLINK!) and start wanting to kick him?

I guess liking Reinette's character is just a matter of personal taste. I liked her, because she kept the Doctor on his toes and even surprised Rose with how sharp she was, but (and although I keep saying this) I really get where you're coming from. But in terms of violating privacy... I do have to wonder at how easily she accessed those thoughts of loneliness, inside his mind. Seems to me that if she got to them that easily, they were right out there in the open. Not, of course, that he was expecting her to come looking -- but usually when something is that close to the surface, it either wants to be found, or needs to be found. I mean, look at how desperately he needs to be healed in season 3 -- all it took was the loss of Rose, and he suddenly turned into a bitter, vengeful, suicidal person. Now, I'm not saying it wasn't a violation on her part, because you're right, it was. But perhaps it wasn't an unwelcome one, from his point of view. I just can't hate her for it!

The Jedi comparison is a cool one, but flawed, I think. The Jedi are specifically trained to love everything but not form attachments. The Doctor is that way because it's his way of protecting himself. So when he does decide to overstep that bound, there's nothing but his own mind to hold him back -- no societal rules, no consequences, nothing but HIM. And after the Time War turned him inside out, and Rose opened him up again... well. Someone like Reinette comes along, and he'll take her hand and dance. Someone like Joan Redfern comes along, and he offers to start over with her when he becomes the Doctor again. Makes sense to me!

And HELL NO, not sorry I asked! I wanna hear more!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

You want more? This comment is so long that I have to split it up into three shorter comments. :p

Why would they need to mention Sarah Jane again? Both the Doctor and Rose resolved their issues with her in that episode, and there was closure. The only closure with Reinette was that she died, but considering the grieving process, and whatever Rose's feelings on the Doctor/Reinette relationship might have been, I think there was much more to explore there than needed to be done with Sarah Jane.

I guess a lot of my issues have to do with continuity, but the "king's wife and king's girlfriend" implications are totally that episode. And Steven Moffat is sorta like Orson Scott Card, for me. I loved OSC's Ender series, until I found out what a homophobe he is. Here, I loved The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances and Blink, and was all right with Girl in the Fireplace, and then I find out he's basically a misogynist. In this article, he says, "There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands." And there's another little gem about the lack of respect in today's society for anything male. Bleh.

Forgot to bring this up in my comment yesterday, but if the Doctor is all right with loving Rose and Reinette at the same time because he's alien and his idea of love might be more fluid...then he's a hypocrite. He got jealous of Mickey, Adam, and Jack in S1, and is really possessive of Rose in front of Mickey in just the next episode. If it's just his idea of love that's fluid, then being jealous and possessive shouldn't even occur to him. But if he understands human love enough to be jealous and possessive in front of a romantic rival in case Rose chooses one of them over him, then he understands exclusive relationships. If he wants Rose to be exclusively with him, but doesn't follow that exclusivity (er, is that a word? :p) himself, then that's a double standard.

And further on that subject--I can't find a source for this, but I'm told Moffat also said something like, "If you can't understand loving two women at the same time, then you're not a man." And I don't have the DVDs, so I can't check this out for myself, but in the GitF commentary, he's supposed to have said something about how the Doctor wouldn't understand why Rose and Reinette might not want to share a TARDIS, and would have to have Mickey explain it to him. So basically he wouldn't understand them being jealous of each other--even though the Doctor's been jealous of Rose's men? That's either Moffat being an idiot about characterization and continuity (though since he's the one who wrote Nine jealous of Jack, and he likes to reference himself, I'd hope he remembers that), or a real double standard. It's all right for the Doctor to want Rose to himself, but it's not all right for Rose to want the Doctor to herself? That's what makes me think those "king's wife and king's girlfriend" parallels are completely intentional, and what makes me start wanting to kick him. :p

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But then there's the fact that he is sorta a continuity idiot. First there's TEC/TDD, which I did love--but Moffat didn't have any "Bad Wolf" reference himself; it had to be inserted last-minute by the design team (the bomb Jack is riding at the end of TDD says "Bad Wolf" in German). There's no "Torchwood" reference in GitF either, though I don't think it would have been that hard with a 51st century spaceship. Moffat says at the beginning of the commentary that he hadn't read the end of the School Reunion script, so he wrote Rose being all touchy-feely with Mickey because he assumed she invited him, though what actually happened is that she didn't want him at all. Then there's the GitF Confidential, where he says that Madame de Pompadour, who was extremely well-educated and accomplished, was kind of like the Doctor's perfect match, and (aside from the fact that I disagree, and would even if I didn't ship Doctor/Rose) makes me wonder where he was last season when the Doctor was falling in love with Rose, and where did he think the series would be going, in terms of the D/R relationship? A lot of other people have said that Moffat basically wants to tell his own story and can run roughshod over characterization and continuity to do it, and I can sorta see their point.

Though to be fair, I don't blame continuity entirely on Moffat. RTD and Julie Gardner should have caught some of this stuff, and Tom McRae, who wrote Rise of the Cybermen and Age of Steel, could have had the Doctor remember Reinette at least a little bit. But it was still Moffat who was out of sync in the first place.

About the mind-meld scene, that's kinda what I have to conclude, that it wasn't an unwelcome one. I sorta understand why you can't hate her for it, but for me, being not unwelcome, and perhaps even good for him (in the sense that he's glad to have a mental connection again, and to have someone understand him), doesn't excuse it. The ends don't justify the means. It doesn't make me hate her (I never bother hating fictional characters :p), but it contributes to my dislike of her (which does have other sources). I much prefer scenes like that one in Fear Her, where the Doctor is so comfortable with Rose that he's able to volunteer personal information ("I was a dad once"). That is so much more natural, and, to me, powerful. Your mileage obviously varies, which is completely all right, but I don't think I'll ever be able to consider that moment as anything other than cheap and violating.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

The Jedi are specifically trained to love everything but not form attachments. The Doctor is that way because it's his way of protecting himself. So when he does decide to overstep that bound, there's nothing but his own mind to hold him back -- no societal rules, no consequences, nothing but HIM.

Hmmm, then maybe the Jedi in general, not just of the prequels, since that's something that continues into the post-RotJ EU, the love of the universe thing--but post RotJ, the Jedi can marry and have families while still loving the universe. Though I don't see how it makes a difference if the no-attachments thing is self-imposed or externally applied--it's not like Anakin kept to it any more than the Doctor did. :p (Though actually, I've gotten the impression that Gallifrey was pretty isolationist, against interfering, especially with "lesser races", so maybe it could have been externally applied with the Doctor as well. Though post-Time War, there definitely wouldn't be any consequences if he decided to break those rules.)

And after the Time War turned him inside out, and Rose opened him up again... well. Someone like Reinette comes along, and he'll take her hand and dance. Someone like Joan Redfern comes along, and he offers to start over with her when he becomes the Doctor again.

Put like that, it does make sense! Though still Joan more than Reinette, since Joan was post-Rose and when he was particularly vulnerable. But Reinette is when he does have Rose--maybe this is where the celebrity/history crush comes in? Which I get, but still doesn't quite explain the "focused on Rose" issue. Back in The Unquiet Dead, the Doctor has his moment of fanboying Charles Dickens, but it only takes him a minute or so before he gets back to thinking about Rose. Here, the Doctor has Rose and Mickey go back alone to a spaceship where there are droids around who he already knows have been killing the crew to use them as parts. That's all right when he's doing something useful, trying to answer why the droids chose Reinette...but going off to dance? That ship is dangerous, with those droids around, but the Doctor has never been so sanguine about Rose being in danger as he is here--well, either sanguine or thoughtless of the possibility, neither of which is really in character, imo. Or even particularly likeable, if he's more focused on dancing with a woman who's supposed to become another man's mistress that night than he is on his best friend and another person he's responsible for following a dangerous droid that has already killed people back to a ship with more such droids.

Okay, it's getting late and I have class tomorrow, so I'm going to shut up now. :p

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I... have no arguments. I don't say this often, but I think you win this one. Good points every single one, and the only thing I'd actually say is that I'm in a different place with regards to the wife/girlfriend thing, because I don't quite see Rose as the wife in that relationship yet. Like Reinette's personality, it's a completely subjective thing, and I just didn't see them as being "in love" at that point. I mean, they loved each other, obviously, but it hadn't turned romantic and hopelessly flirty yet -- I didn't start actively shipping them till near the end of season 2. Around TIP/TSP, probably. And all that, yes, even with the blatant jealousy of School Reunion, and the "No, not you." But at the same time, so much of it is subtext that I can easily see how it could be interpreted the other way, too. Personal choice here, and Reinette still doesn't bother me.

But what you said about the Doctor being so careless about Rose in danger... yeah. No arguments there. And fluid love and hypocrisy... no arguments there either.

And someone seriously needs to smack Steven Moffat upside the head. Just because women are usually the ones who read romance novels and actually TALK about relationships, doesn't mean they're more focused on it than men. For heaven's sake. (I wonder if he heard about the backlash in that article and that's why he decided to make the main character a girl in Blink? Hmm.) Very interesting, though, that the guy who says all the crap about men being feminized or whatever, is the same guy to introduce our very dear Jack. I'm sure the character wasn't his idea, but still. Interesting.

I wonder if Gallifrey was generally anti-relations-with-non-Time-Lords. Hadn't thought of that. (And after all, there's no canon proof that they're... compatible... is there? Heehee. I think I've just stepped into cliche-weird-alien-sex-fic territory!)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, I say Rose is the Doctor's "wife" in that she's the one he goes home to at the end of the day, that sort of thing. I don't think they're in an actual romantic relationship at that point. But I do think they were heading there, that they were in love with each other and well aware of it, even if they didn't know what to do about it. Given that mindset, my best explanation for the Doctor's behavior with Reinette is basically, in New Earth and Tooth and Claw, they were enjoying being together and in love--the honeymoon period. Then School Reunion is a splash of cold water to the face, where the Doctor is forced to face the issue that hey, no matter how much they love each other, he's eventually going to lose her. So maybe he starts thinking that they'll both be better off if they stop this before they get even more invested, and his actions with Reinette are part of his efforts to stop. But then RotC/AoS happen, and the Doctor sees that Rose could have easily chosen to stay in the parallel world with Mickey, and now he's starting to believe that loving her will be worth losing her.

Or at least, that's how I make sense of it. I totally get where you're coming from, and it's definitely subjective and a personal choice. :)

Steven Moffat disappoints me. He did so well with Jack, and with Nancy, and with Sally Sparrow (though, given his views on women and marriage, Sally's "Sally Shipton" slip becomes much less cute). I wish Girl in the Fireplace was as awesome as his other episodes, and I really hope that his two-parter in S4 is as awesome as it could be.

I'm just beginning to make my way through Classic Who, so I don't know much about Gallifrey's policies. However, I do know that the reason Four left Sarah Jane behind in the first place was that he was called back to Gallifrey, and humans weren't allowed on Gallifrey, so that gives us some indication. And as far as compatibility goes...I guess you haven't seen the 1996 TV movie, with Paul McGann as Eight? (It's on YouTube in parts here; other parts are linked from that one.) In that, the Doctor reveals that his mother was human, which definitely points towards compatibility. Still, lots of fans like to ignore everything in the TV movie, including the half-human revelation--it seems to be a bit "take it or leave it" in fic, because some fics adhere to it and some totally don't. Still, John Smith drew Paul McGann's Doctor in the Journal of Impossible Things, so I guess RTD takes the movie to be canon.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense too. Either way, really. But yeah, it still doesn't address why he left Rose in the middle of the Danger Zone. That's going to niggle at the brain more than a bit.

Oh, the Shipton slip doesn't bother me at all. And HE HAS A TWO PARTER IN S4? Okay, that excites me to a ridiculous degree, despite that interview and this conversation. Continuity issues and feminism aside, I still think he's an amazing storyteller. (DOCTOR DANCES omg.) Like you said, the Orson Scott Card factor. Here's hoping, anyway.

Nope, never saw the TV movie, although I'll certainly watch it now that I have that link -- thanks! I do think I'd heard about the half-human thing, which is just... weird. Although it would explain why he hangs around Earth so much, which I've always kinda wondered about. :)

Speaking of the Journal... do you know of anywhere I could get closeups of what was in that thing? My screen is so small, I can't read the writing....

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Yep, two-parter is S4. I am very hopeful! Out of the four episodes he's written, I think three have been amazing, so I do think he can pull it off. I just want him to keep his agendas out of it!

I personally am not sure what to think about the half-human thing. I wish RTD would say something about that either way...

butterfly has close-ups and transcripts of the Journal here. Very useful! :D

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he is better when he's agenda-free -- and so's everyone, really. But hey, all we can do for now is cross fingers and hope! Omigod, s4 starts tomorrow. I'm so, so, SO psyched.

Thanks for that link -- that's some pretty awesome stuff, there. I wonder who actually wrote the journal? And if the spelling was that bad on purpose? :)

[sing1118.livejournal.com]

I know a lot of people who took a while to warm up to Tennant

See, I'd just gotten to really like the show and I heard Eccleston was leaving and was so disappointed. Then I saw New Earth and less than halfway through I was like OMG THIS IS AWESOME. :D

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

PS-- No question about it, Eccleston's definitely sexy. With Tennant around, though, there's just no contest. I have always had a thing for tall, skinny, nerdy guys with big eyes and great hair. I mean, hel-LO.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I am actually about equally attracted to Eccleston and Tennant. In different ways, but still about equal. So again, I just WIN with Doctor Who. :D

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I dunno, Eccleston might be a little too angular for me. He's charismatic as hell, but just based on looks alone, he'd nowhere near Tennant.

Oh god, that icon of yours just makes me MELT.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think he can hold his own. ;) But if you don't want him, no worries, I'll keep him! :D

*waves sexy Tennant at you* :p

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Oh, he can certainly hold his own -- no arguments from me! He's a sexy bitch! Just... not my type, really.

So, YOU can hold his own. I'll hold Tennant's own. Rar.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'm fine with that! As long as you let me look at Tennant smiling every so often, that is. XD

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. That smile should not be withheld from ANYONE. Good gracious but it melts me.