(no subject)
Mar. 5th, 2008 10:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneRewatched Tooth and Claw, School Reunion, and Girl in the Fireplace today.
I actually like School Reunion best, of the three episodes on that disc--and I say that as a New Who fan, who has never seen a single Sarah Jane episode before, and had no idea she even existed before I watched this the first time.
I like some bits of T&C. I definitely liked how happy they were together, and I had to laugh when the bet was first proposed. DT looked very pretty this episode, and guh, I love his accent. The references to Bad Wolf were cool, as was Rose taking charge.
But see, I have a pretty big embarrassment squick, and parts of it really felt like the Doctor and Rose embarrassing themselves. Even if they weren't embarrassed, I sort of was on their behalf. The bet was funny when first proposed, and I love that the Doctor and Rose could find moments of fun, but Rose's prodding...just wasn't something I liked. And all the naked comments, plus the timorous beastie and the wild child--on one hand, I like the spirit of the teasing, while on the other, I so would have hated to be in that situation myself (in front of the queen, people making comments about how uncivilized I was, and my best mate teasing me about it when it's his fault in the first place? Doesn't sound fun).
I wish Rose had gotten to wear that blue dress. It was really pretty.
On School Reunion--I did like Sarah Jane and K-9, even if that's the only place I've seen them. I especially liked the conversation outside the chip shop, of course--and the blocking of the one inside the shop. When the Doctor and Sarah Jane are talking, every time we focus on the Doctor, Rose is in the background. The Doctor's body is blocking Mickey's (cool symbolism), but Rose is always there. Considering the actual content of the conversation, I thought that was a really interesting staging choice--and, of course, I loved it.
I just all-around liked this episode. It's not one of my favorites, but I thought it was a good, solid episode.
Now, Girl in the Fireplace...
The thing about me is, I'm usually very uncritical on the first viewing/reading/whatever. The first time I see something, unless the flaws are really totally gaping, I probably just won't notice them, not until they're either pointed out to me or I watch it again, more closely. (The only exception I can think of, where I picked out flaws on the first go-round, was Order of the Phoenix. Even HBP and DH needed more time for me to get into critical mode.) This mindset is somewhat ironic, considering I'm an English major and I don't remember how many classes I've taken where I've had to analyze things, where I'm just expected to go into critical!mode when I read something. Heh.
Anyway. This was not an exception. I was a D/R shipper when I watched it the first time, but sort of passively--I wanted to finish up the available canon before I got too invested. I don't remember anything I thought the first watch, which makes me think I wasn't thinking anything in particular. We moved on quickly enough, I guess.
Now that I've seen it again...I don't really like it. I don't hate as much as some others I've seen, but I think it's my least favorite episode this season.
I did find bits to like, though. That scene where the clockwork droids have Rose and Mickey, and the Doctor comes in with his tie on his head? At first, I thought he was being flippant when Rose (and Mickey) was in danger, which would have been OOC even for this episode, but now I think it was just misdirection. The glass of "wine" ended up being anti-oil (or whatever), rather than wine, so he came in prepared. That wasn't just him being an ass.
Umm. Arthur was awesome. Rose came out pretty well--very mature.
Though that comes to one of my main problems with the episode. I want to think that Rose learned her lesson about jealousy with Sarah Jane, and I think that's part of it, but another part is that Rose really didn't get the whole story. Pretty much all the Doctor's really significant scenes with Reinette happened when they were alone. Rose might have thought there was something going on between them, but he kept it from her--even the letter at the end, he wouldn't even take out of his jacket until she was out of the room. I know he doesn't share everything with her, nor would I ever expect him to, and I understand why he'd want to keep it private, but it felt like he deliberately hid how involved he got with Reinette, and I didn't like it. He didn't hide his flirting with Jabe or Lynda (not that Rose saw much of that, but there was that awkward handshake at the end), or his history with Sarah Jane. Just Reinette. Geh. Not sure how much sense I'm making, but oh well.
I'm not sure how to explain the Doctor's feelings, especially since we get no further repercussions. (Yeah, I really have to join all those people yelling about the lack of emotional continuity.) I can't buy real love, especially given that by the next episode they're back to normal. I'm sure celebrity/history crush is part of it, especially with the way he says "I just snogged Madame de Pompadour!", but I got a vibe of more from the episode, and I don't think I can just attribute it to the fact that David Tennant and Sophia Myles were dating. That "more" vibe is really bothering me, because there are just no implications that continue throughout the series, gah. I'm totally left not knowing what to think. Maybe just intense infatuation? *sigh*
I've seen some people say that it's showing Rose a super-fast-forward version of her relationship with the Doctor. In some ways this makes sense, but it actually reminds me a lot more of Eight/Grace. There was that romantic element to Eight and Grace, since he kissed her twice, that was present with Ten/Reinette, and Eight wanted Grace to come with him the way Ten wanted Reinette. Of course, Grace turned him down while Reinette waited and died, but Eight moved on after Grace (well, I assume. It doesn't help that, apart from the TVM, Eight only returns in books and audios, which are dubious canon, and which I am not familiar with), as Ten did after Reinette. As Ten so manifestly did not after Rose. He returns to being All About Rose in the next episode, moving past Reinette, while S3 makes it obvious that he can't get past Rose so quickly or easily. I know we didn't know what the Doctor would be like in S3, emphasizing how different a companion Rose was, when this was written or aired, but hindsight makes it obvious that it's not a fast-forward version of Doctor/Rose, just because of how the Doctor acts once past the first shock of loss.
Hmmm, I've almost reconciled myself to Ten/Reinette! Now that I'm on this thread, it seems to me like the Doctor proving his "No. Not to you" line from School Reunion, about not being able to leave Rose behind. It doesn't seem like that in the short term, but in the context of the show as a whole, especially given S3, it really seems to show how different Rose was, in terms of her place in the Doctor's life. Losing an infatuation he can bounce back from. Normal companions leaving, too. But lose Rose, and he's full of grief and pain, and caught in a downward spiral where he gets rather suicidal (DiM/EotD) and does some really scary things (FoB).
Now that I've had this thought, I'm rather fond of it, except for two things. One is that I don't think that's how Steven Moffat intended it--but then, judging from what I've read of his thoughts and intentions (where he comes across pretty misogynistic), I don't really want the episode to conform to his intentions. But authorial intent doesn't necessarily matter as much as reader/watcher interpretations, so I can reconcile that. And the second thing--I think it was poorly timed. I know Moffat didn't even read the script of the previous episode, so he probably didn't realize about the Doctor declaring he wouldn't leave Rose behind, since he sorta does just that in this episode, even if temporarily. It just comes across as really hypocritical.
Though, on that note--I am not really bothered by the Doctor going through the mirror and "trapping" himself. For one thing, he had to preserve history, which is a lot more important than Rose and Mickey on a spaceship, especially since they're safe and have access to basic ammenities via the TARDIS. (I do cry "bullshit!" at the Doctor's reason for going by mirror rather than the TARDIS, though--I think he should have used his notoriously bad driving as an excuse, and said he might not have gotten the timing right if he went by TARDIS. Then again, that would mean admitting he's not perfect... :p Still, it was a stupid reason.)
And on the other hand, the Doctor knew he could eventually get back. He might have had to take the slow path a bit, until he found another version of himself to get a ride from (one of them at the Boston Tea Party, and I think One was at the French Revolution), but he knew he wasn't abandoning Rose and Mickey permanently. And even if he was all right with leaving them behind (which he wouldn't have been, but if), then he would still NEVER have abandoned the TARDIS. He just wouldn't have. But look at how relaxed he is, especially compared to The Impossible Planet, when he thinks he has lost the TARDIS. In GitF, it feels like he's resigned himself to the slow path, even with Reinette, but he obviously takes the first chance he has to go back to Rose--it's just lucky for him that it was so soon.
It reminded me a bit of The End of the World. Not in tone, but in EotW, Rose is fine with him going off with Jabe--but she knows that she's the one he's staying with, when she says "I want you home by midnight!" After the mirror, Rose does look sorta melancholy, which makes sense given that she doesn't know when the Doctor will come back, but I don't think she lost faith with him there. I don't think she ever thought that he wouldn't come back for them. (Or at least, you know, his beloved TARDIS, if nothing else.) Maybe the Doctor will flirt with Reinette, but he's still going back to Rose at the end of the day.
I'm not really that enthused with the comparison--EotW was when they barely knew each other, before either fell in love, so flirting and going off with Jabe didn't have any skeevy undertones. In GitF, the Doctor has already been established as in love with Rose, something that happened way back in S1, and which he's been coming to terms with ever since. I guess Reinette is a bit of backsliding, some denial about what Rose means to him, after the emotionally charged previous episode (...which Moffat didn't even read...), because that's the only way I can make sense of it. It doesn't fit my view of the Doctor, but I can accept that, I guess. I read someone else who thought that maybe the Doctor knows how in-love with Rose he is, and therefore it didn't occur to him that Reinette could be any sort of threat to his relationship with Rose. I really like that idea, but after watching the episode again, it just didn't really fit with the vibe I got, so eh. It goes back to me not knowing how to explain the Doctor's feelings.
Moving on! I didn't really like Reinette herself. I actually put this down more to clashing personality types--I'm very different, and I can't imagine being as forward as Reinette is. It's the kind of personality that just grates on me. I don't really know that much about Madame de Pompadour, so I can imagine it being in character for her, but it sort of turns me off. Especially since sometimes it seems to cross into presumption, like the mind-reading scene. The Doctor's telling her how to keep things private--imagine a closed door--and she just steps right into his mind? It didn't seem very respectful, to me, especially given how private a person the Doctor is. That, combined with how cheap I think mind-meld/insta!love is, means I really don't like it, and don't really like her for doing it.
So, yeah. Lots of problems with this episode. Some of them I've sorta resolved, but not enough to really want to watch it very often.
I actually like School Reunion best, of the three episodes on that disc--and I say that as a New Who fan, who has never seen a single Sarah Jane episode before, and had no idea she even existed before I watched this the first time.
I like some bits of T&C. I definitely liked how happy they were together, and I had to laugh when the bet was first proposed. DT looked very pretty this episode, and guh, I love his accent. The references to Bad Wolf were cool, as was Rose taking charge.
But see, I have a pretty big embarrassment squick, and parts of it really felt like the Doctor and Rose embarrassing themselves. Even if they weren't embarrassed, I sort of was on their behalf. The bet was funny when first proposed, and I love that the Doctor and Rose could find moments of fun, but Rose's prodding...just wasn't something I liked. And all the naked comments, plus the timorous beastie and the wild child--on one hand, I like the spirit of the teasing, while on the other, I so would have hated to be in that situation myself (in front of the queen, people making comments about how uncivilized I was, and my best mate teasing me about it when it's his fault in the first place? Doesn't sound fun).
I wish Rose had gotten to wear that blue dress. It was really pretty.
On School Reunion--I did like Sarah Jane and K-9, even if that's the only place I've seen them. I especially liked the conversation outside the chip shop, of course--and the blocking of the one inside the shop. When the Doctor and Sarah Jane are talking, every time we focus on the Doctor, Rose is in the background. The Doctor's body is blocking Mickey's (cool symbolism), but Rose is always there. Considering the actual content of the conversation, I thought that was a really interesting staging choice--and, of course, I loved it.
I just all-around liked this episode. It's not one of my favorites, but I thought it was a good, solid episode.
Now, Girl in the Fireplace...
The thing about me is, I'm usually very uncritical on the first viewing/reading/whatever. The first time I see something, unless the flaws are really totally gaping, I probably just won't notice them, not until they're either pointed out to me or I watch it again, more closely. (The only exception I can think of, where I picked out flaws on the first go-round, was Order of the Phoenix. Even HBP and DH needed more time for me to get into critical mode.) This mindset is somewhat ironic, considering I'm an English major and I don't remember how many classes I've taken where I've had to analyze things, where I'm just expected to go into critical!mode when I read something. Heh.
Anyway. This was not an exception. I was a D/R shipper when I watched it the first time, but sort of passively--I wanted to finish up the available canon before I got too invested. I don't remember anything I thought the first watch, which makes me think I wasn't thinking anything in particular. We moved on quickly enough, I guess.
Now that I've seen it again...I don't really like it. I don't hate as much as some others I've seen, but I think it's my least favorite episode this season.
I did find bits to like, though. That scene where the clockwork droids have Rose and Mickey, and the Doctor comes in with his tie on his head? At first, I thought he was being flippant when Rose (and Mickey) was in danger, which would have been OOC even for this episode, but now I think it was just misdirection. The glass of "wine" ended up being anti-oil (or whatever), rather than wine, so he came in prepared. That wasn't just him being an ass.
Umm. Arthur was awesome. Rose came out pretty well--very mature.
Though that comes to one of my main problems with the episode. I want to think that Rose learned her lesson about jealousy with Sarah Jane, and I think that's part of it, but another part is that Rose really didn't get the whole story. Pretty much all the Doctor's really significant scenes with Reinette happened when they were alone. Rose might have thought there was something going on between them, but he kept it from her--even the letter at the end, he wouldn't even take out of his jacket until she was out of the room. I know he doesn't share everything with her, nor would I ever expect him to, and I understand why he'd want to keep it private, but it felt like he deliberately hid how involved he got with Reinette, and I didn't like it. He didn't hide his flirting with Jabe or Lynda (not that Rose saw much of that, but there was that awkward handshake at the end), or his history with Sarah Jane. Just Reinette. Geh. Not sure how much sense I'm making, but oh well.
I'm not sure how to explain the Doctor's feelings, especially since we get no further repercussions. (Yeah, I really have to join all those people yelling about the lack of emotional continuity.) I can't buy real love, especially given that by the next episode they're back to normal. I'm sure celebrity/history crush is part of it, especially with the way he says "I just snogged Madame de Pompadour!", but I got a vibe of more from the episode, and I don't think I can just attribute it to the fact that David Tennant and Sophia Myles were dating. That "more" vibe is really bothering me, because there are just no implications that continue throughout the series, gah. I'm totally left not knowing what to think. Maybe just intense infatuation? *sigh*
I've seen some people say that it's showing Rose a super-fast-forward version of her relationship with the Doctor. In some ways this makes sense, but it actually reminds me a lot more of Eight/Grace. There was that romantic element to Eight and Grace, since he kissed her twice, that was present with Ten/Reinette, and Eight wanted Grace to come with him the way Ten wanted Reinette. Of course, Grace turned him down while Reinette waited and died, but Eight moved on after Grace (well, I assume. It doesn't help that, apart from the TVM, Eight only returns in books and audios, which are dubious canon, and which I am not familiar with), as Ten did after Reinette. As Ten so manifestly did not after Rose. He returns to being All About Rose in the next episode, moving past Reinette, while S3 makes it obvious that he can't get past Rose so quickly or easily. I know we didn't know what the Doctor would be like in S3, emphasizing how different a companion Rose was, when this was written or aired, but hindsight makes it obvious that it's not a fast-forward version of Doctor/Rose, just because of how the Doctor acts once past the first shock of loss.
Hmmm, I've almost reconciled myself to Ten/Reinette! Now that I'm on this thread, it seems to me like the Doctor proving his "No. Not to you" line from School Reunion, about not being able to leave Rose behind. It doesn't seem like that in the short term, but in the context of the show as a whole, especially given S3, it really seems to show how different Rose was, in terms of her place in the Doctor's life. Losing an infatuation he can bounce back from. Normal companions leaving, too. But lose Rose, and he's full of grief and pain, and caught in a downward spiral where he gets rather suicidal (DiM/EotD) and does some really scary things (FoB).
Now that I've had this thought, I'm rather fond of it, except for two things. One is that I don't think that's how Steven Moffat intended it--but then, judging from what I've read of his thoughts and intentions (where he comes across pretty misogynistic), I don't really want the episode to conform to his intentions. But authorial intent doesn't necessarily matter as much as reader/watcher interpretations, so I can reconcile that. And the second thing--I think it was poorly timed. I know Moffat didn't even read the script of the previous episode, so he probably didn't realize about the Doctor declaring he wouldn't leave Rose behind, since he sorta does just that in this episode, even if temporarily. It just comes across as really hypocritical.
Though, on that note--I am not really bothered by the Doctor going through the mirror and "trapping" himself. For one thing, he had to preserve history, which is a lot more important than Rose and Mickey on a spaceship, especially since they're safe and have access to basic ammenities via the TARDIS. (I do cry "bullshit!" at the Doctor's reason for going by mirror rather than the TARDIS, though--I think he should have used his notoriously bad driving as an excuse, and said he might not have gotten the timing right if he went by TARDIS. Then again, that would mean admitting he's not perfect... :p Still, it was a stupid reason.)
And on the other hand, the Doctor knew he could eventually get back. He might have had to take the slow path a bit, until he found another version of himself to get a ride from (one of them at the Boston Tea Party, and I think One was at the French Revolution), but he knew he wasn't abandoning Rose and Mickey permanently. And even if he was all right with leaving them behind (which he wouldn't have been, but if), then he would still NEVER have abandoned the TARDIS. He just wouldn't have. But look at how relaxed he is, especially compared to The Impossible Planet, when he thinks he has lost the TARDIS. In GitF, it feels like he's resigned himself to the slow path, even with Reinette, but he obviously takes the first chance he has to go back to Rose--it's just lucky for him that it was so soon.
It reminded me a bit of The End of the World. Not in tone, but in EotW, Rose is fine with him going off with Jabe--but she knows that she's the one he's staying with, when she says "I want you home by midnight!" After the mirror, Rose does look sorta melancholy, which makes sense given that she doesn't know when the Doctor will come back, but I don't think she lost faith with him there. I don't think she ever thought that he wouldn't come back for them. (Or at least, you know, his beloved TARDIS, if nothing else.) Maybe the Doctor will flirt with Reinette, but he's still going back to Rose at the end of the day.
I'm not really that enthused with the comparison--EotW was when they barely knew each other, before either fell in love, so flirting and going off with Jabe didn't have any skeevy undertones. In GitF, the Doctor has already been established as in love with Rose, something that happened way back in S1, and which he's been coming to terms with ever since. I guess Reinette is a bit of backsliding, some denial about what Rose means to him, after the emotionally charged previous episode (...which Moffat didn't even read...), because that's the only way I can make sense of it. It doesn't fit my view of the Doctor, but I can accept that, I guess. I read someone else who thought that maybe the Doctor knows how in-love with Rose he is, and therefore it didn't occur to him that Reinette could be any sort of threat to his relationship with Rose. I really like that idea, but after watching the episode again, it just didn't really fit with the vibe I got, so eh. It goes back to me not knowing how to explain the Doctor's feelings.
Moving on! I didn't really like Reinette herself. I actually put this down more to clashing personality types--I'm very different, and I can't imagine being as forward as Reinette is. It's the kind of personality that just grates on me. I don't really know that much about Madame de Pompadour, so I can imagine it being in character for her, but it sort of turns me off. Especially since sometimes it seems to cross into presumption, like the mind-reading scene. The Doctor's telling her how to keep things private--imagine a closed door--and she just steps right into his mind? It didn't seem very respectful, to me, especially given how private a person the Doctor is. That, combined with how cheap I think mind-meld/insta!love is, means I really don't like it, and don't really like her for doing it.
So, yeah. Lots of problems with this episode. Some of them I've sorta resolved, but not enough to really want to watch it very often.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-03-08 12:22 pm (UTC)School Reunion was a good episode. I kind of wish the villains hadn't been quite so campy and over-the-top, though. It wouldn't have been hard to get a real sense of menace going, but it wasn't really there. Maybe they didn't want to scare the kiddies at home too much. :p
I don't mind Girl in the Fireplace, but I'd have to agree that there are flaws. The time windows and clockwork robots were an interesting concept. I think the episode suffered from pushing the Reinette/Doctor angle too strongly and for no real reason. I don't ship Doctor/Rose (or Doctor/anyone, really :p) but I agree that in terms of where their relationship was, it didn't make sense for him to behave as he did. Even if he didn't consider himself in a relationship with Rose (romantic relationship, that is), he still cared about her a great deal, which makes it strange for him to effectively dismiss her from his attention the way he does in the ep.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-08 11:49 pm (UTC)I actually don't think the Doctor thought of himself as in a romantic relationship with Rose in GitF. I think they were headed that way at that point, but that they weren't there yet. But given that I do think they were going in that direction, and that I do think the Doctor was in love with her, I'm just not sure what to think about Ten/Reinette, and how he treats Rose. In terms of fannish looking at the overall show thus far, I can make it fit into the continuity with a bit of twisting, but when looking at just early S2, especially following from S1, some things just seem glaringly OOC.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-26 05:36 pm (UTC)One difference is that I actually liked “The Girl in the Fireplace” better the second time I watched it. But that’s because I hated it the first time around. The second time, I already knew that the Doctor spent the episode acting like a git, and that it ended up not mattering, so I could tune it out and focus on the awesomeness of Rose.
I’m going to go with infatuation, myself. “School Reunion” made it clear how the Doctor feels about Rose. But I think he has a lot to learn about being in a committed relationship. But then, I think that was part of the point of the episode—especially the contrast between Ten/Reinette (infatuation) and Ten/Rose (intimacy). Reinette calls him her “lonely angel,” and Rose says, “Oh, look at what the cat dragged in. The Oncoming Storm.” One of them’s in love with a myth, and the other one’s in love with a man. (I kind of love the Doctor/Rose fight in that episode. It’s so real.)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-30 02:20 am (UTC)I can't think of any episodes I outright disliked on the first go, not even any of S3, but like I mentioned, I don't really notice the bad points until later. So basically I'm always more critical the second time I watch, except for the rare episodes that just keep working for me. (The Doctor Dances is one of those, which is why GitF disappoints me so much now--Moffat can be so much better than that!)
But I think he has a lot to learn about being in a committed relationship.
I think that's spot on, and something I'll definitely keep in mind when thinking about early S2. I also like your point about the contrast between infatuation and intimacy, though things are made difficult for me by Moffat's interviews, where that doesn't seem to be the point he's pushing, and I can't quite forget that. *sigh*
But yeah, Rose is awesome. :D
no subject
Date: 2008-03-30 03:43 am (UTC)I am, too, but in a different way. My first reaction—good, bad, or indifferent—almost always comes from the gut. My brain doesn’t kick in till later. So if an episode pushes one of my “do not want” buttons… and unfortunately, seasons two hit pretty much all of them. But once I’d seen season three, I could see how season two fit into the story as a whole (that’s where the critical thinking comes in), and that helped.
Nor should you. He’s the one who wrote the episode, after all. And I’m not going to say, “The author is dead,” because I think that’s nonsense. What I will say is that, when it comes to the series as a whole, the author is RTD.
I’ll be honest—I don’t think Moffat really groks the story RTD is telling. His episodes always feel a little bit… off, to me. But thankfully, his scripts are being filtered through actors who do grok the story, so I can usually handwave whatever leaks through.
So say we all. <g>