Twincest/incest
Dec. 17th, 2004 11:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneSo I watched Boondock Saints and started feeling the Connor/Murphy love.
This keeps making me feel guilty, as Connor and Murphy are twins (fraternal!) and I am a twin (fraternal!) and thinking about twincest tends to make me wibble.
And then I started thinking about why. Pretty much every single twin I personally know on the internet says they are squicked by twincest, or at least dislike it. I'm not an exception. But people who have siblings enjoy (if that's the right word for it; I can't think of another more appropriate one right now) incest, both het and slash--I have sisters, and I can take reading Bellatrix/Narcissa or something like that (mainly because they're Blacks and Blacks are Messed Up. Though I've read Bill/Charlie, courtesy of![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lea_ndra, and liked that too, but it had R/S as the other main pairing).
So I was thinking, people with brothers and sisters can enjoy sibling incest, so what is it about twincest that makes twins shudder? It is another kind of sibling incest, after all.
I mean, I know why I dislike it. I hear/read the word "twin" and I think of mine, and you know, I really just don't want to think of her in a sexual context, especially not in a sexual context with her twin, meaning me. Me/my twin = OH MY GOD NO. Though it's the same there with people who like sibling incest--liking that doesn't mean they want to shag their brothers/sisters.
Maybe it's the closeness issue? One of the most common thoughts about twins is that they're closer than regular siblings. I don't know how true that is--it's probably not with me and mine (well, I'm closer to her than to my other sister, but my other sister is a stereotypical blonde airhead jock who doesn't like to read), but maybe that's just because we're fraternal? According to my Biology teacher back in freshman year, I'm supposed to be as genetically similar to my twin as to my little sister, which is easy to believe, even just by looking at us. But we're close, I guess--we've finished each other's sentences, and known what the other was thinking, even if it was something completely random; that, however, I think is more just a product of having known each other for seventeen years now, having gone to school together and had the same friends and hung out together. But are we closer than Random Sibling A and Random Sibling B, just by virtue of being twins? Probably not.
Though I think the main issue, with me, sort of ties in with both of those reasons. I've often been told that I'm special for having a twin, I guess because twins are somewhat rare, and dude, everyone likes being told that they're special, don't they? So many people have siblings, but most of those don't have twins. And so I considered my relationship with my twin to be special, and by extension all twin relationships as special, and so twincest seems more a perversion of that special relationship than regular incest is of a regular sibling relationship. That issue isn't very flattering to me, as it is a sort of prejudice and arrogance, I suppose, but it's the best I can do in articulating my feelings about twincest. *shrugs*
But even after thinking all that, I still find myself attracted to the Connor/Murphy pairing, and thinking to myself, "Why am I liking this? I don't like twincest!"
Part of that answer is, of course, the dynamic between Connor and Murphy themselves; their interaction in the movie can easily lend itself to the belief that they're together that way. It's not the first time I've read twincest; for those of you who know Fushigi Yuugi, I've read a Suboshi/Amiboshi fic before (though only because it was a minor pairing in a Nuriko/Hotohori fic I was reading), and I kept skipping over any S/A parts, but probably the only thing that made me even tolerate it instead of hitting the back button was because of the dynamic between Suboshi and Amiboshi in the anime.
It's probably why I shudder when I think of Fred/George and Padma/Parvati, for my primary fandom of Harry Potter. The dynamic between each of those two sets of twins does not show me that they might want to be in a twincestuous relationship, and so my twin prejudice/arrogance comes to the fore and wibbles at me and says twins don't think of each other that way! And therefore, because of that reaction to most twincest, my brain keeps telling me that reading other twincest, like Connor/Murphy or Suboshi/Amiboshi, should make me feel really guilty.
Anyway, if you've made it this far past my ramble, I've got a couple questions.
First of all, do you have a twin? If so, how do you feel about twincest? Twincest in comparison with incest? People without twins are welcome to answer that as well.
Also, if you do like/enjoy/whatever twincest, why?
It's 11:30 now and I should go to bed, as I'm tired. Good night. :)
This keeps making me feel guilty, as Connor and Murphy are twins (fraternal!) and I am a twin (fraternal!) and thinking about twincest tends to make me wibble.
And then I started thinking about why. Pretty much every single twin I personally know on the internet says they are squicked by twincest, or at least dislike it. I'm not an exception. But people who have siblings enjoy (if that's the right word for it; I can't think of another more appropriate one right now) incest, both het and slash--I have sisters, and I can take reading Bellatrix/Narcissa or something like that (mainly because they're Blacks and Blacks are Messed Up. Though I've read Bill/Charlie, courtesy of
lea_ndra, and liked that too, but it had R/S as the other main pairing).So I was thinking, people with brothers and sisters can enjoy sibling incest, so what is it about twincest that makes twins shudder? It is another kind of sibling incest, after all.
I mean, I know why I dislike it. I hear/read the word "twin" and I think of mine, and you know, I really just don't want to think of her in a sexual context, especially not in a sexual context with her twin, meaning me. Me/my twin = OH MY GOD NO. Though it's the same there with people who like sibling incest--liking that doesn't mean they want to shag their brothers/sisters.
Maybe it's the closeness issue? One of the most common thoughts about twins is that they're closer than regular siblings. I don't know how true that is--it's probably not with me and mine (well, I'm closer to her than to my other sister, but my other sister is a stereotypical blonde airhead jock who doesn't like to read), but maybe that's just because we're fraternal? According to my Biology teacher back in freshman year, I'm supposed to be as genetically similar to my twin as to my little sister, which is easy to believe, even just by looking at us. But we're close, I guess--we've finished each other's sentences, and known what the other was thinking, even if it was something completely random; that, however, I think is more just a product of having known each other for seventeen years now, having gone to school together and had the same friends and hung out together. But are we closer than Random Sibling A and Random Sibling B, just by virtue of being twins? Probably not.
Though I think the main issue, with me, sort of ties in with both of those reasons. I've often been told that I'm special for having a twin, I guess because twins are somewhat rare, and dude, everyone likes being told that they're special, don't they? So many people have siblings, but most of those don't have twins. And so I considered my relationship with my twin to be special, and by extension all twin relationships as special, and so twincest seems more a perversion of that special relationship than regular incest is of a regular sibling relationship. That issue isn't very flattering to me, as it is a sort of prejudice and arrogance, I suppose, but it's the best I can do in articulating my feelings about twincest. *shrugs*
But even after thinking all that, I still find myself attracted to the Connor/Murphy pairing, and thinking to myself, "Why am I liking this? I don't like twincest!"
Part of that answer is, of course, the dynamic between Connor and Murphy themselves; their interaction in the movie can easily lend itself to the belief that they're together that way. It's not the first time I've read twincest; for those of you who know Fushigi Yuugi, I've read a Suboshi/Amiboshi fic before (though only because it was a minor pairing in a Nuriko/Hotohori fic I was reading), and I kept skipping over any S/A parts, but probably the only thing that made me even tolerate it instead of hitting the back button was because of the dynamic between Suboshi and Amiboshi in the anime.
It's probably why I shudder when I think of Fred/George and Padma/Parvati, for my primary fandom of Harry Potter. The dynamic between each of those two sets of twins does not show me that they might want to be in a twincestuous relationship, and so my twin prejudice/arrogance comes to the fore and wibbles at me and says twins don't think of each other that way! And therefore, because of that reaction to most twincest, my brain keeps telling me that reading other twincest, like Connor/Murphy or Suboshi/Amiboshi, should make me feel really guilty.
Anyway, if you've made it this far past my ramble, I've got a couple questions.
First of all, do you have a twin? If so, how do you feel about twincest? Twincest in comparison with incest? People without twins are welcome to answer that as well.
Also, if you do like/enjoy/whatever twincest, why?
It's 11:30 now and I should go to bed, as I'm tired. Good night. :)
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no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 11:41 pm (UTC)To me, incest is incest. Doesn't matter if you're a twin or not. It's all the same to me.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 11:46 pm (UTC)I'm not a twin, but both my parents are twins. Even both identical! Hah. So I pretend to know something about them;)
basically - I think this whole issue is about seperating fantasy from reality. At first I was all 'incest, ewww' and I'm still not too keen about it, but I can read it in HP fic and be generally okay with it. Twincest included. However, as soon as I make the connection or someone mentions anything about incest and myself I completely backtrack.
I think that - maybe twins identify more with being a twin, then other people identify with having siblings. Having siblins is a part of the way I view myself, but it's not such a big part of it. So the thought 'incest' doesn't immediately lead to 'me in incest', if you get my meaning, but as you said, being a twin is considered 'special' and I assume it would be a bigger part of self-perception, so maybe that line is shorter, if you get my meaning. And this was one of the most commas I've ever had in one sentence;)
la! Hopefully this is somewhat comprehensible, it's nearly 3am;)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 11:58 pm (UTC)That's probably a big part of it. I mean, if I was to describe myself, one of the very first things I would say is, "I'm a twin". I might completely forget to mention my little sister at all, even if being her older sister is part of me too; it's not as much a part of me as being a twin is.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 11:55 pm (UTC)I'm big into the incesty/sibcesty side of fandoms (which you have probably noticed). Though, having been raised as an only child I don't have to wrestle with any of the issues that come with liking the genre and having siblings. (I do notice though, that I don't like parent/child unless the parent is a bastard in the first place and its noncon. I don't know what that says though. :p)
A lot of people I know like twincest, but not 'regular' sibcest and have told me they're particularly drawn to the idea of say "two bodies, one person" type of thing. Where the twins are halves of a whole and entirely incomplete without eachother. ...or they like the aspects when its an identical pairing and are a bit into clonesex too.
Me, I like the twincest, but I'm way way WAY more into older/younger sibling. I like the dynamic more. Usually there's more tension in the source, and bigger differences in terms of things like a protective older brother and a studious younger brother. Or a younger brother who has grown up in the shadow of and envying/admiring his older brother. etc. etc. And when it comes to identicals, the clone aspect doesn't ping any of my kinks.
Connor/Murphy is probably the only twin pairing I actively ship. I don't feel that they have the usual twin dynamic that you see in movies/books. And possibly because they're fraternal they're even more obviously two seperate individuals with very different personalities.
divas should
Date: 2004-12-18 12:22 am (UTC)and yeah-- in real life, incest BAD-- but fic is fic (and its good that you can separate that--fantasy is fantasy-- and the "only harmful if it effects real life" thing)
people in the work that I have done,(metaphysical (energy), reiki) tend to dwelve into "other lives, souls...etc. but I don't, as I really don't care-- because for me, everything I am working on is in the now (I know literally what I'm doing and why and that it has to be resolved now and on this plane of existence (my own soul purpose, etc.) :)
but I have heard of "twin souls" and others that are halves of the same souls, and continue searching for each other (I can see that as romantic) it sounds a perfect union
the same people (workers) --simply look at "soul mates" as someone which we were supposed to learn something important from, for any amount of time (not "forever" love (and maybe just 15 min.)--
but it made me think because I think these were the people we previously thought of and referred to as "soul mates"-- our destiny to be with-- and that I think would be twin souls now? wouldn't it? if you are literally two halves of a whole?
although I don't know if its real (the twin souls) -- as I've never met someone struggling with that, in life or theory-- it is interesting. . .
either way -- says HI and *waves* :)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 04:15 am (UTC)Lost Boys twincest icon!!!! *dies*
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 01:43 am (UTC)Moreover, there is something really disturbing in reading description of people having sex with, basically, themselves. It's a weird screwed narcistic feeling, isn't it? Whereas with siblings, unless the story is serious like mines are and there is no way you'd get remotely turned on anyway, the differences between them (often of age) can help you disconnect with the squicky and picture them as friends. Although I'm not well placed to talk about that because the only "fun" incest stories I've ever read were...twincest. XD
Actually, now that I think about it, for me it seems to be the opposite. Incest makes me vaguely uncomfortable (unless it's really really well written and with characters I don't know a lot about, like Sirius and Regulus) (well I know a lot about Sirius but you know what I mean), whereas twincest (if it's with G/F, that is) has a fun, innocent turn......well in the end I guess it's all to do about the fact that it's Fred & George, Masters of Fun.
And I think I'm getting lost in my own argumentation, so I'll stop there!
(and I've re-read what I wrote and the end of my comment completely contradicts the beginning, which I think proves how complex the issue is! *smiles*)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 04:17 am (UTC)I understand if that squicks people, but I personally don't think it's any different from "normal" sibling twincest. The idea of having sex with my sibling makes me want to puke. But Connor and Murphy, they are so one person, so it's merely a form of masturbation *lol*, or narcissm, self love, whatever...
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 06:36 am (UTC)It's the intimacy, not necessarily the actual genetic relationship, at least for me. ;D But being a twin, I don't blame you for being a bit uncomfortable with it. I would be too!
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 06:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 08:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 08:50 am (UTC)Oh yeah, and relationships between hobbit cousins don't count because hobbits are always marrying their cousins.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 09:10 am (UTC)That said, I don't mind Connor/Murphy, though I don't ship them actively. But:
1) I've only seen the movie once, but I don't think we ever see them having sex, or even kissing.
2) They're not quite human. Human taboos don't necessarily apply.
Not to equate Connor and Murphy with deities, but I mean, in the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian pantheons, incest was pretty common and pretty much accepted. That doesn't bother me in the slightest.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:44 am (UTC)I loathe twincest in fics. And I loathe incest, as well. I just don't get why so many people see twincest and incest as positive or harmless or cute. It quite literally makes me sick to my stomach.
Well, I have to qualify that. Incest in the Greek, Roman and Egyptian pantheons, or set in ancient Egypt (where the rulers, at least, tended to marry close family members)--that's okay. That's the norm for the mythology, or for the place and time.
However, incest/twincest set in, say, the Harry Potter fandom--which is basically the late twentieth century with magic--is not okay. It's not the norm in the West, and it's not the norm for the era.
Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that Fred and George Weasley could be apparently confident young men who can get girls to date them at the drop of a hat while carrying on a passionate incestuous homosexual affair under everyone's noses. Likewise, I don't believe that Parvati and Padma Patil are indulging in lascivious twincestuous lesbian love--the two girls don't seem to have anything in common in canon, twins or not. Lucius Malfoy is NOT boffing Draco; Draco really shows no symptoms of sexual abuse, whatever the fanon says. I don't think that Bill or Charlie or Percy or Ron are getting it on with Ginny, any more than I think that Sirius and Regulus had a long-term smoldering affair, or that Bellatrix's true love was her sister Narcissa.
There's one kind of pairing I exempt from consideration when incest is mentioned, and that's sex between cousins. Cousins are allowed to marry, legally--even first cousins. To my mind, if the blood relationship is distant enough to permit marriage, it's not incest. It's a potentially legitimate relationship. (I don't for one minute believe that Sirius or Regulus would have ever been interested in Bellatrix, Andromeda or Narcissa, but I do believe that either of the Black boys could have married one of the Black sisters, had the couple in question been so inclined.)
But sex between parent and child, or ordinary siblings, or twins? No. So not on. And so not a good or positive thing. Really, the fact that so many people regard it as positive (at least in fanfiction) frightens me, because it communicates the ideas that there is no such thing as sexual abuse, that this is just another way of showing love, and that incest or twincest are not in the least exploitative. These are scary and dangerous ideas, and they seem to be widespread--not as widespread as the idea that being a strong woman is bad, or that all a girl needs to be happy are A) a makeover to become beautiful; B) a boyfriend; C) lots of sex; D) a husband; and E) a baby.
These ideas pop up in Suefic after Suefic. They are trend indicators; they show the way that the majority of teen girls are thinking. The "incest and twincest are GOOD" ideas show, I fear, that the writers believe that it's good if anyone desires you sexually--and if it's forbidden, that's not because it's illegal or exploitative or immoral--it's because others cannot grasp the depth of feeling between you, so you have to keep it secret. This is romantic hogwash--"don't tell" is in the vocabulary of every molestor--but once again it shows how teens are thinking: it's better to be wanted by someone--even your father, brother or twin--than never to be wanted at all.
And I find this frightening.
I find even more troubling that when it is pointed out to the Suethors that really, incest tends to have psychological repercussions and would not be as happy and sparkling as they seem to think, the Suethors become furious. "They LOVE each other!" is the usual argument--completely bypassing the fact that it is not at all normal to love your brother or sister as you would a lover. Love, of course, is supposed to overcome all ills and make everything right--even a relationship that, in real life, would be sick, twisted or abusive.
Isn't that a wonderful idea for an entire generation of girls to have?
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 08:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-30 09:37 pm (UTC)