(no subject)

[rynne]

Okay, so I was in class today listening to my Presidency and Congress professor lecture about the unitary executive and the politicization of the bureaucracy, and what could I not stop thinking about?

Doctor Who meta. More specifically, the Human-Nature-with-Rose AUs, and one of my big problems with many of the ones I've come across.


I've basically found three categories of Human Nature with Rose AUs:

1. Time period shift. Instead of being set in 1913, it's set in modern times. Rose is typically the love interest, but in some (like countrygirl_914's Human Nature, and earlgreytea68's Human Nature in Chaos (link to part two; part one linked from there) would also fit here) she's also the companion, and in others (like orange_crushed's The Scientist and hippiebanana132's Human Nature (link to part two; part one linked from there)), Martha is still the companion while Rose is the love interest.

2. Rose takes Martha's place. The story's still set in 1913, but Rose takes on Martha's role as the companion, the Doctor's protector--and, typically, as the maid as well. Examples are hippiebanana132's Once Upon a Time and Simply Lily's Not Quite Right.

3. Other. Which is basically only one fic, because I've only found one that does not conform to either of the first two categories--lumendea's Turn Your Back, Look Away and Blink, which has the Weeping Angels send a Rose in Pete's World back to when Martha and the Doctor are hiding from the Family, and Rose becomes the school librarian. There may be other stories that do not conform to the first or second categories that I haven't read (but would appreciate being linked to, if other people have read such stories), but that's really the only one I've found.

My main concern is with the second category, where the story's still set in 1913 and Rose takes Martha's place. Mostly because all the fics I've read that do this still make Rose the maid, and this makes me go WTF? a bit.

(Here I want to disclaim that I do not approve of the necessity of Martha being a servant. I hope it's obvious that I'm trying to objectively discuss racist policies of the past while in no way liking those policies and the realities they engender.)

The thing is, Martha became a maid because there was no other role for her to plausibly take, not in that time period. If Paul Cornell was determined to keep the story in 1913, then the only way for Martha to remain close to John Smith was to be his maid.

I've not read the book Human Nature, which I believe Cornell adapted for S3, but shinyopals has created a lovely and useful comparison of the book and the episodes. And in the book, Seven's companion, Benny Summerfield, poses as his niece. Not as his servant.

Martha could not pretend to be family, considering differences in skin color--no one would have bought it. They could possibly have created some convoluted story about her being a half-sister or something, but that would have been conspicuous, and the point was to hide. She couldn't be his wife or fiancee, first because the Doctor doesn't think of her that way, and second because again, it would be conspicuous. Frankly, the only way for Martha to stay close to him without giving him away was as his servant.

Rose? Does not have that problem, any more than Benny Summerfield did. I mean, I'm not expecting everyone who wants to write a Human-Nature-with-Rose AU to read the book and/or find out about Benny's role, but it just seems logical to me that Rose would not have to be relegated to servant the way that Martha was.

I have never seen a Human-Nature-with-Rose AU not written by a Doctor/Rose shipper. They might exist, I dunno, but really the main point (from what I can tell) of that kind of AU is to see what effect becoming human would have on the D/R relationship, usually with a romantic connotation. And I honestly think that, if Human Nature had still happened when it did in the timeline, and assuming that the Doctor and Rose were never separated in Doomsday, that they would have been in an overtly romantic relationship by then. Given this, I think it plausible that Rose could have posed as John Smith's wife.

But even if you don't think that they were in a sexual relationship by that point, you could still acknowledge the romantic feelings and make Rose his fiancee. Given the time period she wouldn't be living with him, but she could still visit him and keep an eye on him and they could still be romantic without having to open the can of worms that Rose having sex with the Doctor as an oblivious human might bring (especially if they aren't having sex prior to the Family).

Hell, if a non-D/R shipper wants to write such an AU, or just someone who doesn't want to make it D/R romantic, Rose could, like Benny, be family. Probably not his niece, given their relative apparent ages, but she could easily be his sister or his cousin.

Given that Rose does not face the same constraints that Martha does, and given the dynamics of the Doctor/Rose relationship, it just doesn't make sense to me to make Rose the maid.

This is not to say that I'm telling people what to write. It's your story--if you want Rose to be the maid, that's your prerogative. I actually like every single story I've linked to in this entry, including the ones with Rose as the maid--they can offer interesting facets to the relationship and interesting plot changes with Rose instead of Martha.

What I just think would be a more interesting equivalent (of a sort) to Martha being John Smith's maid is Rose being his wife. As a maid, Martha had to deal with being pushed into a box, bounded by the expectations and prejudices of the time in a way that she'd never (presumably) had to deal with before. She might have encountered racism and sexism in her life prior to traveling with the Doctor, but given that she's a medical student from an apparently upper-middle class family, I doubt she had to deal with classism of the sort that she as a maid found in 1913. Coming through the racism and classism is what expanded her character in those episodes.

These trials, on the other hand, would not do the same things for Rose as they did for Martha. First, of course, the racism is not applicable. But the thing is, the classism that Martha had to deal with for possibly the first time, that's not anything new to Rose. Rose grew up poor on a council estate with a dead-end job and no A-levels. Her mother was influencing her to stay like that, saying things like that working in the shop had given her "airs and graces". Cassandra calls her a chav. She identifies with the plumber in End of the World, the maid in The Unquiet Dead, and the Ood being "dinner ladies" in The Impossible Planet. Being in the position of "maid" in society is nothing new to Rose. What can it offer her character?

Well, okay, one interesting thing is how John Smith would have so much power over her, including being able to fire her and send her away. On the other hand, though, at least if there is any remnant of the Doctor in John Smith at all, I can't imagine him doing that.

Really, I just think a more interesting trial (and character-defining experience) for Rose would be as John Smith's wife. Here is where, like Martha, Rose would have to deal with expectations she's never encountered. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in this time period, single women were more independent than married women, and married women were expected to be homemakers.

Rose is a highly independent and adventurous character. I'm sure she'd make friends with other people around the village, but I also think she'd get quite frustrated with being constrained, and by a different set of expectations than what she's used to. She knows how to be in a service position, how people will treat her, what the boundaries are. She doesn't know how to be a housewife in 1913, and I think seeing her deal with that would be far more interesting than seeing her deal with being a servant.

And her relationship with John Smith could be a great source of tension. For this scenario I would assume that the Doctor and Rose were in a sexual relationship prior to the thing with the Family, so what does she think about her relationship with John Smith versus her relationship with the Doctor--how are they similar, how are they different, is their sex life affected by the sexual norms of the time? What are John Smith's expectations for their relationship and her behavior, and what effect do they have on Rose?

This...ended up way longer than I thought it would. XD But basically my point is that I don't think it makes that much sense to make Rose a maid, and that it would be far more interesting to put her in other roles (though there's nothing wrong with people who do want to write her as the maid, since that can be interesting too). :p

This means I should probably write it myself, doesn't it? XD If only I didn't have far too many other things to write...

Comments

[avoria.livejournal.com]

...LMAO. I love what you do when you shuold be in lectures :P

If you're in the slightest bit interestd, I am actually in the process of writing an AU Human Nature fic, but... well, I don't want to give away too much, but there is a very big BUT. From what I can gather, it's a somehat original concept.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

XD

I did manage to wait until after class was over to write all this down. I just couldn't stop myself from mentally composing this entry during class. :p

Whoo, original HN AUs! :D I've also actually written one, sort of--when he told her he was going to have to become human, Rose told him he was an idiot and proposed another solution. :p

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I see and totally agree with your point. Something you didn't mention that I see a lot of which is why I generally am not a fan of the HN AU's is that Joan Redfern is always kept in the equation and I just can NOT believe that the Doctor, even as John Smith, would have any romantic feelings towards ANYONE ELSE if Rose was in the picture. Heck, even with her not in the picture, he still knew of her, dreamed of her, drew her, etc. That's my big problem. With Rose in the equation, the Joan Redfern character as how she is in the actual episodes doesn't work.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Huh. The only HN AU I've read that really kept Joan Redfern at all was the one in my "Other" category, but once Rose appeared on the scene, she drew John Smith's attention pretty quickly. :p I haven't seen any HN AUs that keep Joan Redfern in a romantic capacity.

I don't see the narrative purpose of that. The story needs John Smith to fall in love so he'll be reluctant to turn back--I think that'd still be true even if the love interest were Rose, who'd want him to turn back, since Joan was the one to persuade him to do so anyway. And it makes no sense from Rose's POV to see him falling in love with anyone else--because they've been there and done that. I'm never going to like GitF, but it certainly makes the same kind of scenario with Joan completely superfluous.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

"I just can NOT believe that the Doctor, even as John Smith, would have any romantic feelings towards ANYONE ELSE if Rose was in the picture"

Sorry to disagree... but you seem to forget Reinette...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm in complete agreement with you, on both the Doylist and Watsonian reasons.

Rose and Martha are not interchangeable characters in any way.

ETA: If you aren't aware of the terms 'Doylist' and 'Watsonian', they come from Sherlock Holmes fandom -- Doyle being the author of the series, so a Doylist explanation explains why the author would choose something (like to grow Rose's character), while Watson was Holmes' friend and the narrator for the books, so a Watsonian explanation is why something makes sense in story (like the Doctor having differing relationships with Rose and Martha). I'm not sure how widely those terms are used.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I haven't heard the terms Doylist and Watsonian, but I sort of figured them out from context, though the explanation helps. :)

And definitely Rose and Martha are not interchangeable. I see it happen in S3-with-Rose AUs all the time--Rose is there, but doesn't change the story in any appreciable or significant way, which annoys me. She's not going to react to things the way Martha did! They're different characters!

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[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

My main concern is with the second category, where the story's still set in 1913 and Rose takes Martha's place. Mostly because all the fics I've read that do this still make Rose the maid, and this makes me go WTF? a bit.

I’ve discussed that with people before. I would think that equation would be pretty simple for the TARDIS, assuming you’re not writing it as a matchmaker. If you are writing that the Doctor and Rose are already involved, they’re married. If they’re not, she’s either his servant, or as in Tooth and Claw, she’s his charge, or she’s his niece (say, a deceased sibling’s child) or a cousin. More to the point, if you’re not a D/R shipper, Rose could be his ward, which is an entirely different connotation. The last would make for a particularly interesting dynamic with Joan, because you’re then dealing with a Joan who believes John Smith has fathered a child out of wedlock, and while he was quite young.

If Paul Cornell was determined to keep the story in 1913, then the only way for Martha to remain close to John Smith was to be his maid.

As with The Next Doctor, there’s a fairly hard stopping point dictated by the story. As RTD has said about Jackson Lake, he’d have to be a historical “Doctor,” because in modern times he would just go see his GP. The TARDIS would want to choose a time period in which the risk of injury to the Doctor was minimized, and the likelihood of the involvement of a large number of bystanders would be reduced. That means keeping it early enough to reduce the risk from firearms, late enough so that it’s relatively civilized, early enough to keep the likelihood of vehicular mishap down, and early enough/remotely enough to keep the population down.

I've not read the book Human Nature, which I believe Cornell adapted for S3, but shinyopals has created a lovely and useful comparison of the book and the episodes. And in the book, Seven's companion, Benny Summerfield, poses as his niece. Not as his servant.

I think an alternate HN with Donna (assume she stayed with him after TRB) could be really interesting. In some ways the Seven/Benny dynamic was reminiscent of the Ten/Donna dynamic, in terms of her not really putting up with his crap.

They could possibly have created some convoluted story about her being a half-sister or something, but that would have been conspicuous, and the point was to hide.

Given the time period, if Martha had been South Asian instead, they could’ve gotten away with the niece/ward angle.

Frankly, the only way for Martha to stay close to him without giving him away was as his servant.

Even if they did write her as being way the hell too chatty about their situation.

…but it just seems logical to me that Rose would not have to be relegated to servant the way that Martha was.

She wouldn’t have to be, but it’s also possible that the TARDIS, knowing her service background, would feel comfortable making her a servant or member of school staff, because she knows how to live that role, even if she doesn’t like it. I don’t think Martha ever had to fold sweaters for a living, y’know?

There are also few Blink-with-Rose fics that I’ve seen. I think perhaps one, and that may be because the concept is somewhat duplicative from a shippy perspective… although the likelihood and opportunity for pursuing a fully romantic relationship is higher in 1969 than 1913.

Re: 1 of 2

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I would think that equation would be pretty simple for the TARDIS, assuming you’re not writing it as a matchmaker. If you are writing that the Doctor and Rose are already involved, they’re married. If they’re not, she’s either his servant, or as in Tooth and Claw, she’s his charge, or she’s his niece (say, a deceased sibling’s child) or a cousin.

Yeah. I think that if I were writing it to not be D/R shippy, I'd make her his younger sister (with their parents dead), since that just seems easiest to me. But the thing is, I'm not sure what the point of inserting Rose into this storyline at all is if you're not going to do something romantic with it. I can understand wanting to put different companions into the situation to see how their different characters and relationships with the Doctor would change things--I agree that Donna would be particularly interesting there--but one of the things about Rose's relationship with the Doctor is that it is more overtly romantic than most other companions'. I'm just not sure why someone (or at least, someone who isn't mostly interested in debunking the relationship) would put Rose in that situation at all if not for the romantic reasons.

The TARDIS would want to choose a time period in which the risk of injury to the Doctor was minimized, and the likelihood of the involvement of a large number of bystanders would be reduced. That means keeping it early enough to reduce the risk from firearms, late enough so that it’s relatively civilized, early enough to keep the likelihood of vehicular mishap down, and early enough/remotely enough to keep the population down.

Huh. I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. Okay, I'm not questioning 1913 anymore. :)

She wouldn’t have to be, but it’s also possible that the TARDIS, knowing her service background, would feel comfortable making her a servant or member of school staff, because she knows how to live that role, even if she doesn’t like it. I don’t think Martha ever had to fold sweaters for a living, y’know?

I just looked up the script for this episode to see how Martha's integration was supposed to happen, and the Doctor said that the TARDIS could create a life for him, but not for her--she was supposed to improvise, while he had just enough residual awareness to let her in. This makes me think that either Martha chose servant herself, which John Smith went along with, or John Smith assumed her to be his servant, and Martha went along with that. It doesn't look like the TARDIS had a particular hand in Martha's role, besides imposing certain constraints given the time period she landed in.

I can't imagine Rose choosing to be John Smith's servant given any other options, and I can't imagine a John Smith with any amount of residual awareness assuming her to be his servant. Given this, I think wife or fiancee the most likely options, sister/niece/ward out, and charge or cousin possible but not as likely.

There are also few Blink-with-Rose fics that I’ve seen.

Oh, I've not seen those. Do you have links to any good ones?

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[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

And I honestly think that, if Human Nature had still happened when it did in the timeline, and assuming that the Doctor and Rose were never separated in Doomsday, that they would have been in an overtly romantic relationship by then.

If the reported ship properties of the unproduced Stephen Fry script that would’ve been 2x11 are a) accurate and b) any indication, it would’ve indeed been crystal clear.

But even if you don't think that they were in a sexual relationship by that point, you could still acknowledge the romantic feelings and make Rose his fiancee.

This would also work from a matchmaker TARDIS standpoint, even if you don’t ascribe intent to it: that said nature of the relationship is what it imputed and based its calculations on. However, the they’re-not-involved-yet-but-are-being-pushed-into-it angle has been done repeatedly.

I actually like every single story I've linked to in this entry, including the ones with Rose as the maid...

What I don’t get are the ones (none mentioned here) where it’s been “rewritten” and it’s basically a name change with no other variances from the episode. *shakes head*

Well, okay, one interesting this is how John Smith would have so much power over her, including being able to fire her and send her away.

In this scenario, I think Smith might still fire her and send her away, but for an entirely different reason. What would John Smith do if he felt he were developing inappropriate feelings for his servant? Could he even show the book to Joan, if it’s filled with thoughts about Rose?

…my understanding is that in this time period, single women were more independent than married women…

Yes. And moreover, the TARDIS would know she doesn’t have the background to sustain being a professional.

She doesn't know how to be a housewife in 1913, and I think seeing her deal with that would be far more interesting than seeing her deal with being a servant.

Yeppers, particularly with the parameters you outline below. I could see an incident where she went to do something the Doctor would normally very much appreciate (i.e., oral sex), and it freaks John Smith out completely.

Re: 2 of 2

[rynne.livejournal.com]

If the reported ship properties of the unproduced Stephen Fry script that would’ve been 2x11 are a) accurate and b) any indication, it would’ve indeed been crystal clear.

Oh? What are the reported ship properties, then? ;) I've not heard anything about this, I don't think.

What I don’t get are the ones (none mentioned here) where it’s been “rewritten” and it’s basically a name change with no other variances from the episode. *shakes head*

There are none of those mentioned in this entry because I don't read them. :p But if it's basically a name change with no other variations, it would still fall under the basic umbrella of my second category--just not as good as the examples I linked.

In this scenario, I think Smith might still fire her and send her away, but for an entirely different reason. What would John Smith do if he felt he were developing inappropriate feelings for his servant? Could he even show the book to Joan, if it’s filled with thoughts about Rose?

Well, but would he still be falling in love with Joan, if Rose were in the picture, even as a servant? I suppose this is subjective, but I really don't think so. There is the Doctor in John Smith, that was made completely apparent with the piano-and-baby-carriage incident, as well as the dreams. I think it'd hurt him to even contemplate sending her away, much less actually following through.

Yeppers, particularly with the parameters you outline below. I could see an incident where she went to do something the Doctor would normally very much appreciate (i.e., oral sex), and it freaks John Smith out completely.

That was what I was thinking. But really, there just seems to me to be a great deal more to explore with Rose in the role of his wife, rather than his servant.

Now I must read a fic like this

[starryc84.livejournal.com]

I don't know how I ended up here, but this is super interesting! And now I really want to read a fic like this. Somebody write it!

Re: Now I must read a fic like this

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Heh, I really want to read a fic like this too! I just don't want to have to be the one to write it. :p

[honorh.livejournal.com]

You didn't mention it, so I don't know if you've read it, but the most interesting take I've seen on HN is In Human Hands by rallalon. Instead of Ten, it's Nine. Instead of 1913 England, it's modern-day Barcelona (the one in Spain). Instead of being a teacher, this John Smith is a mechanic. And instead of being a servant, Rose becomes rather a pest of a tourist who pushes her way into John Smith's closed-off life. The story's ongoing, but it's told so gorgeously that I'd encourage you to get into it even if you hate WIPs. The way Rall is working the relationship is amazing; there's a great deal of romantic tension between "John" and Rose, but she's pulling back because of the Doctor, in spite of obviously wanting to get closer to John.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten about that fic. I started reading it when there were only a few chapters, but I think rallalon's style is something I have to be in the mood to read.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

I think you're right re: Rose's and Martha's class differeces. Rose is defintely working class. I always kind of read her character as that the school she went to weren't up to much and so she didn't have a teacher to push her that much, so she ended up messing around a lot. Not because she's stupid but that no-one really expects her to do any better and not many people on the estate are professional people.

MArtha comes from quite a middle class family - they can afford to put her through medical school plus be able to afford to put her siblings through an undergraduate degree if they wanted.

So casting Rose as a maid wouldn't have the character struugles as it would Martha would. I'm rembering the scene where Martha slaps him and Joan reprimands her. MArtha is secure in herself of being a lot mot educated to to turn round and stand up for herslef where I', not sure how Rose would react in the same position.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see Rose and Martha's backgrounds. I do think Rose is comfortable standing up for herself--she's Jackie Tyler's daughter, after all--but I just don't think her being a maid would add much to the story or her character.

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

I love your thoughts on things. And now I want to read a Rose-as-his-wife AU, because that would be pretty awesome. Or Rose-as-his-fiancée, in a post-Doomsday situation where they haven't had sex yet. SOMEONE MUST WRITE THIS. XD

I tend to be reasonably forgiving of Rose-as-a-maid in some fics, as long as they actually acknowledge that she's a different character. I've read at least one or two which are a simple cut and paste of HN/FoB, which I find ridiculous. But I'd definitely prefer to read something different. I also can't really imagine the Doctor developing any romantic feelings for Joan with Rose there. Maybe he'd attempt a(n appropriate for the time period) friendship, but there's clearly enough of his memories left to recognise Martha and write all those things in the journal. I can't see him not noticing Rose in favour of someone else.

It also makes sense because, as you said above in the comments, the TARDIS has nothing to do with the role Martha chose. It was likely it was simply the only thing that made sense.

I think you're right on the class issues. Not that Rose would enjoy (or choose) to be a maid, but it's something she's had to deal with before. With a family as pushy as her mum seems to be (and as well off), I can very much imagine Martha didn't need to get a job while at university, so she's simply not as used to that sort of thing.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Yes. I really want someone to write Rose-as-wife or Rose-as-fiancee, because that would be so much awesome. It just needs to be someone other than me. XD

I can like Rose-as-maid in fic if it's done well, but I pretty much always have to ignore the little voice in my head going "how much did the author think about how Rose being there might change things?" There are some episodes in S3 where I'm not sure things would be significantly changed by Rose being there, but I think HN/FoB had a lot of potential. But definitely, if Rose is there, no more romance with Joan, whether Rose is his wife or his maid. XD

[cookie2697.livejournal.com]

Here via the_spdn!

I really love this argument! And it never once occurred to me, but while reading I just kept mentally going, "Yeah...YEAH! TOTALLY!"

I definitely fall into the camp that doesn't think that Rose would necessarily be the maid. Or maybe it's just that I don't like the idea of her being the Doctor's maid ;) Who knows? I've been writing a AU HN fic for about a year - who knows if it'll ever see the light of day - but in mine Rose did get herself an outside job where she could keep an eye on him without necessarily being right in his chamber with him - although it doesn't exactly stay that way ;)

But the counter argument I always make to the idea of Rose staying in the maid position is: didn't the Doctor say that Martha would have to fend for herself? The TARDIS would take care of him, but not her? I guess I always got the impression that Martha put herself in the Maid role. Which makes me think that because of the inherent differences in their characters, Rose would choose something different.

I definitely would like to see a fic from the wife angle though. That would be very, very interesting. And I agree, is something that could only be pulled off because of the nature of the Doctor/Rose relationship.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just don't see the point of making Rose the maid, and see a lot of reasons not to.

I'm not sure Martha put herself in the maid role. I could see her doing that, but I could also see John Smith just assuming that's who she was. So if it had been Rose there instead of Martha, and had there been a real D/R relationship (which I do sincerely think would have happened by that point), either Rose would have suggested wife or fiancee, or John Smith would have assumed that's who she was. That's just what makes sense to me.

[jedi_of_urth]

Part of my issues with HN/FoB rewrites with Rose is that often not enough is different. Rose isn't Martha, they don't react to things the same, the don't speak the same, they have different backgrounds, they have very different relationships with the Doctor. One can't just plug Rose into Martha's role and play it out like that. I'm not saying I don't enjoy these stories, but I guess I enjoy the ones with big changes more.

I personally have started but never finished several of these types myself. One with just Rose, posing as John Smith's wife; one with Rose and Martha as companions, and Rose as the Doctor's lover, where Rose is his cousin or something (I haven't worked on it in a while), so she's kind of a buffer between John and Martha while at the same time having trying to keep her real life with the Doctor from being obvious and him still flirting with Joan; and then one where Rose was sent from Pete's World, has amnesia so she and John are having flashes of memory from another life and eventually regain their true selves.

One of these days I should get back to writing those...

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

I love all of these fic ideas, and would gladly read any of them.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Oohh, Rose as John's wife would be very interresting! I hope someone writes it!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'd so love to see someone write it as well. :D

[bastetseye.livejournal.com]

I've actually thought about Human Nature since watching Joss Whedon's (who RTD is a fan on and does seem to write in a similar style occasionally) Dollhouse. And have been thinking that it would have been interesting to see Rose playing the Doctor's wife.

Considering that I think Rose wouldn't have seen him as the Doctor, not really. Being his wife, John Smith would assume at least some sex (depending on what the marridge would be in like in his head it would range) and I wonder if Rose would see it as Rape in a way, as in if they had sex she would be raping the Doctors body, as technically he can't consent.

It would be interesting (and I imagine quite comedic) if we would have seen that. (also it could have played ut in season one or two, as a romantic/sexual aspect isn't a requirement-although it would have made it shippy!)

[honorh.livejournal.com]

That's what bothers me about the idea of Rose as John Smith's wife--the question of consent. He wouldn't really be the Doctor, so 1) she might not even be really attracted to him, and 2) she'd worry what the Doctor would think of her having sex with Smith once he's back "home." I think being his fiancee would be a better way to go.

[belanna-paris.livejournal.com]

Here via the_spdn.

I had honestly never thought of Rose being John's wife before. I personally like the fics where John falls in love with Rose as the maid/whatever and that is a cataylst for them getting together after John reverts back to being the Doctor.

Two fics you may have missed are:

A Note To Self (http://teskafuture.livejournal.com/85167.html) &
Human Nature (http://hippiebanana132.livejournal.com/8778.html)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I like those fics too, but I also think it could be really interesting to do something different. Since I do think that if Rose were there but the timeline otherwise unchanged, they would have been in a romantic relationship, I just think it could really be interesting to make her his wife.

I have actually read both of those fics--Human Nature I linked up in my post, even. :)

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

There is a new community devoted to stories rewriting Human nature with Rose.
http://community.livejournal.com/smith_rose/

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'm flattered to have inspired a community! Very cool. :)

[catyuy.livejournal.com]

Hey there.
Love this discussion.
Thought I'd point to this fic on ff.net: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4773800/1/

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Ohh, I haven't read that one. Thanks! :)

[simply-lily.livejournal.com]

I'm extremely curious about the idea of Rose as a wife. While I don't really buy the idea of the Doctor and Rose in a sexual relationship prior to that (sadly, DW is just... a-sexual), it would be interesting to read a story where she would suddenly need to take that into account.

I have to say, though, I don't think the TARDIS would program her like that, but in fanfiction we don't have to abide to the disturbing celibacy of the TV show. Now, if the TARDIS were to make Rose a librarian or a nurse, she would have to be implanted with knowledge artifically about librarianship in the 1913s or nursing - and for some reason that seems wrong to me. Maybe because I think Rose is wonderful either way, as a shopkeeper, dinner lady or whatever, and that she should be only her decision change her life. Right now I can't think of another job that would keep her that close to the Doctor that isn't pretty similar to maid.

By the way, awesome way to spend a lecture, LOL!

[ukraine-girl.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts! I was thinking about this myself today, because of a fic I'd read. It wasn't mentioned here, but have you read staci_x2's S3 rewrite series "In Any Other World" (http://staci-x2.livejournal.com/tag/~in+any+other+world)? She just posted the Human Nature chapter, and it's a variation on the second option you mentioned in your post. Since it's Rose that's traveling with the Doctor instead of Martha, she of course takes Martha's place as his protector, but they both get jobs at the school: the Doctor as a teacher and Rose as the matron, replacing Joan Redfern as well. Rose poses as John Smith's close friend (just like before, plus the Doc and Rose have not entered into a romantic relationship at this point), but he does start making advances on her and it raises interesting questions for her regarding her relationship with the Doctor. The whole series is a good read, but this one is very good in particular!

[roachpatrol.livejournal.com]

Dropping in to say, that's really fascinating analysis, and thanks for the links! Yeah, I never really thought about Rose as a Maid in Human Nature AUs being nothing she hadn't experienced before. I suppose it would be a, I don't know, a classicism with teeth in, compared to the comparatively more egalitarian twenty first century she was used to. I think it would be a bit like racism in terms of Martha-- nothing she hadn't had a taste of before, but suddenly and nightmarishly magnified, and both of them would be incapable of defending themselves, or proving their detractors wrong. In the twenty first century, you can go and prove someone wrong if they say that women can't do something, that blacks can't do something, that estate girls are dumb sluts. Or you can just go and tell them to shut the hell up. As a maid in 1913, you'd definitely just have to take it.

You should totally write what you're describing. Sounds like a fun ride!

A scenario I've never seen, and I'd certainly like to, would be the forbidden love scenario engendered by Rose posing as John Smith/Tyler's sister. They already love each other like best friends and like partners in crime, but the possible romantic love is just as problematic and taboo as when they were a Time Lord and a Human, if not more so by John Tyler's very proper human standards. And Rose has to keep pretending that she doesn't want to smooch him silly when he wears cute pajamas! And then of course, there's the problem of all those hopeful suitors, showing up to court the very eligible Miss Tyler...

I can't say I have an incest kink, but I do have an angst kink. Making Rose the Doctor's sister would throw such a wrench into their romantic relationship it's kind of irresistible, but somehow no one else seems to have written it yet! A darn shame.