(no subject)

[rynne]

I have complicated feelings on how the D/R story was resolved. I'm not sure how coherent this will be.

It might be better for the universe that the Doctor (Brown for ease of use, I suppose, though I hope fandom comes up with a better way of referring to these two soon) doesn't have Rose. He's always applied different rules to Rose, and this episode encapsulated that clearly. Jack isn't allowed to have a working Vortex manipulator, even though he knows how to use it properly, but Rose tells the Doctor that she was building an interdimensional cannon, something with the potential to destroy universes, just to get back to him, and he beams at her. Jack and Martha get bitched at for joining military (or paramilitary) organizations, and Rose gets a proud "Rose Tyler, Defender of the Earth". The reason he gives for locking Blue away in the parallel world is because he committed genocide and can't be trusted, and never mind that Rose did the exact same thing in Parting of the Ways. (Also never mind that the Doctor has committed more than one genocide himself, sigh.)

He has different rules for Rose, and at some point he might put her ahead of the universe, with disastrous consequences. Better to let her have someone who can devote his whole being to her, right? Or at least that's something I've seen a lot since watching the episode.

My problem with this is that they made each other so much stronger. The only time I can recall him putting her first with disastrous consequences is in Father's Day, but that was fairly early in their relationship, and they've both learned. He's tried to put her first in other situations, like World War III and Dalek--except in both of those, Rose compensated. When he hesitated to put her life in danger, she told him to do it, and when a Dalek took her hostage and he let it free, Rose's compassion changed it enough that it was no longer a danger. Her love for him gave her the strength to become Bad Wolf, and his love for and belief in her let him smash open the Beast's prison without letting the thought of what would happen to her stop him, because he trusted her. They were partners, and they made each other stronger.

Only once have the Doctor's different rules for Rose brought on something bad, but once was enough, because it's never happened again. So I can't accept that it's for the good of the universe that Brown let her go, because frankly I think the opposite is true.

I'm sort of torn on Blue himself. On one hand, he did come from the Doctor, and he has the same memories, the same mind, and clearly the same love for Rose. But he's not quite the Doctor. We are more than the sum of our memories. The Doctor is a Time Lord, one who feels responsible for a universe and does everything he can to help, someone who knows that the decisions he makes can change the fate of a planet, someone who loves people who always leave him and probably don't understand how very deeply he feels, and despite this he continues to meet people and love them. Blue is very close, but the simple fact of his lifespan (and everything that comes with it) preclude him from being the same person. Not to mention the bits of Donna he was born with.

I do think that Blue and Rose could have a fantastic life together, but I think the Doctor being a Time Lord is so very intrinsic to him that a version of the Doctor who is a different species can't be the same. And it's Rose and the Doctor whose relationship I fell in love with--Rose, and the ease and strength and happiness and warmth and love that she gave to this overburdened Time Lord, that he returned in full measure. They overcame the barriers of species and age and so many other obstacles to fall in love, and I loved them for their struggle to do that. Human!Doctor/Rose just isn't the relationship I became so invested in.

My anger with Brown has pretty much passed (though I'm still angry with RTD), and now I can hurt for him, left alone again, this time by his own design. I'm probably always going to be angry that his character arc, which could have been so brilliant, came to such a sudden stop, but given that, I can understand his actions. I don't think he's ever felt that he deserved Rose, and it's been clear throughout the series that he's always wanted her to be safe and happy. He probably doesn't think the other version of himself deserves her either, but he knows that she wants him still, and this is the best he can offer her.

And I think his love for her is still very palpable in that scene. He's very abrupt, but that's such a huge clue to his mental state--he probably has to be that abrupt just to get through this without breaking down and/or giving in. He's set this course, and now he has to see it through. I think that's why he didn't finish his sentence--it's not that he couldn't, I don't think, but instead that he wanted to draw a clear line between him and this other version. There's an explicit comparison right there, and I think it's deliberate on his part--he refuses to say the words to push Rose towards the one who will say them, the one who will offer her everything, rather than just wishing he could. But it still hurts him to do that, which is why he leaves so quickly, and without saying goodbye. (I do think that's horrible, though. I can understand it, but I do not like it.)

Honestly, given Blue's existence, I'm not sure what else he could have done. If he kept Rose with him, what would they do about Blue? The three of them traveling together would probably have driven all of them crazy, with both Doctors likely getting jealous of each other and Rose stuck in the middle. I can't imagine him letting Blue go off on his own, even if I think the genocide thing was just an excuse (at least, I hope it is, because Brown is a giant hypocrite if it's not), which really only leaves leaving Blue and Rose together, where they have some chance to be happy together. And it has to be in the parallel world, which will soon be sealed off, so that Brown isn't tempted to interfere.

I'm just still angry at RTD for writing it so that this is the only option. I just...don't understand why the Doctor has to be such a tragic, lonely figure. I do understand the constraints of the show that mean the Doctor (and the TARDIS) is the only constant, with all the companions coming and going, but there are ways around that. I still would have preferred an ending where the Doctor and Rose walk off into the sunset (figuratively or literally), and next time we see the Doctor, it's years later. Billie Piper would no longer be required, and the Doctor could have had some respite. Yeah, watching her grow old and die would have been tragic, especially when he didn't, but I think having a life with her could have given him peace.

Instead, the Doctor is now perpetuating his own loneliness, and this show is sending a message that heroes aren't allowed to be happy, that they can't be heroes unless they're lonely, tragic figures. Ugh. That's not the show I thought I was watching. What happened to "this show is about hope", Rusty? This episode emphasized the inevitability of the Doctor's loneliness, and that is so far from hopeful it's not even funny. In fact, it's really pretty horrible.

It leaves me wishing Rose had never returned, that Doomsday was the last time we saw her. I was afraid that this would be my reaction to how their story ended, and I'm not pleased that my fear was borne out. Doomsday, at least, felt honest. It took the Void to separate these two, and even then we knew they would be together if they could. This ending now felt rather...pasted on. It just didn't feel as respectful to the characters, their feelings, and their character arcs as Doomsday did. And we always had reunion fic. We still have it, I suppose, but it's a lot more complicated now.

There's probably more I could say, but I'm feeling sick and tired and I'm going to bed now.

Comments

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

You pretty much think like I do, so much so it's almost scary.

I'm just still angry at RTD for writing it so that this is the only option. I just…don't understand why the Doctor has to be such a tragic, lonely figure.

Exactly. While I get that the ending we got was the best thing we could have hoped for in the circumstances, why *create* those circumstances? I thought we were going to get some resolution and growth from the Doctor's character arc and I just feel that we haven't.

Definitely wishing it had ended with Doomsday.

While I don't hate Blue/Rose, I can't get over Brown by himself, and as you said: by his own design. I also feel like I didn't see enough of Blue — I'm not sure how I'm supposed to think of him. Yes, he's the Doctor, I've seen enough to know that, but I don't quite know what to do with him beyond that.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Great minds think alike? *g*

While I get that the ending we got was the best thing we could have hoped for in the circumstances, why *create* those circumstances? I thought we were going to get some resolution and growth from the Doctor's character arc and I just feel that we haven't.

Yes, this. Instead of character growth, it feels like we got character regression. And the thing is, Davros's "truth" is just a nasty twist on the real truth, which is that the Doctor makes his companions into people who are willing to stand up for what they believe in no matter the cost, which is a positive thing. Davros just put this negative spin on it, and the Doctor hates himself so much that he believed him, when I think that real strength from the Doctor would have been rejecting Davros's spin and taking strength from his friends. That would have been awesome, and now it's shot to hell.

I also feel like I didn't see enough of Blue — I'm not sure how I'm supposed to think of him. Yes, he's the Doctor, I've seen enough to know that, but I don't quite know what to do with him beyond that.

Exactly. It would have been nice if we'd gotten, you know, any interaction between him and Rose prior to Bad Wolf Bay Redux. It would have been nice for Rose to have a base on which to place the belief that both of them are shoving at her, that they're the same person. If I couldn't have Brown and Rose together, I at least wanted to see Rose really accepting Blue, and I don't think we got that.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Instead, the Doctor is now perpetuating his own loneliness, and this show is sending a message that heroes aren't allowed to be happy, that they can't be heroes unless they're lonely, tragic figures.

Yes. And I hate that. I wrote a post a couple of years ago last year (it seems like much longer than that) comparing the Doctor to Superman in Superman II. I pretty much imprinted on the first two Superman movies with Christopher Reeve as a child, and I still adore them in all their cheezy glory. However, one thing that has never set right with me is that they felt like Superman couldn't be with Lois unless they made him solely human. In other words, they made him give up his powers. And when he got his powers back to save the world, he gave up Lois and made her forget that their relationship had happened.

I just think it's the height of stupidity. Why in the world would you want someone with world- or universe-changing powers to be so separated from the rest of humanity? Is he so infallible that you never need worry that he'll do something wrong? So merciful that he'll always judge appropriately (see "Family of Blood" for an example of overkill) what to do? No. He needs a connection, someone to remind him that people are just people. To keep separating him out like this is just asking for an implosion which will probably take out the known universe.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I haven't seen much of the Superman franchise, but Star Wars is one of my fandoms, so the comparison that strikes me is of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic. That requirement to give up attachments led to them becoming so insular, so disconnected with the people they were supposed to protect, that Palpatine didn't really have any trouble at all declaring them outlaws and having the people accept it.

One of the reasons I'm still so angry with how RTD ended this story is because of Midnight, where the Doctor was without that human connection and fared horribly because of it. In The Runaway Bride and Family of Blood, we see why the Doctor needs a human connection for the sake of everyone else, and in Midnight and Turn Left, we see why he needs a human connection for his own sake.

I just...given all these episodes emphasizing why the Doctor needs a human connection, I have no clue what RTD was thinking when he left Journey's End as he did. And given his statements in the Confidential, I don't really have any hope of the Doctor learning better in the specials. *sigh*

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

My thoughts on Doctor/Rose and their ending are a bit different from yours, but one thing on which I agree wholeheartedly is the bit about the show sending the message that heroes aren't allowed to be happy. First, yeah, I do want to be watching a show about hope -- because, to begin with, the first three seasons all were, and I liked that; also, at least as far as I've seen, old school Who is often extremely hopeful. That, and the Doctor having to be lonely and tragic to be heroic is just ridiculous -- which incarnations one personally thinks are more or less heroic aside, the old Doctors were very seldom companionless and being sad! and alone! and I don't find myself thinking, "Oh, Ten is absolutely so much more heroic than they were." And, yes, the Tenth Doctor does sad in an aesthetically pleasing way, but I think at this point most of us wish he would be happy more often.

In addition, coupled with Sarah Jane's comment about the Doctor acting lonely but having the biggest family in the world, the ending message seems to be, "The Doctor can't even hear Sarah Jane's true and hopeful words through the sound of his own sadness. And that makes him heroic! Right?"

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

"The Doctor can't even hear Sarah Jane's true and hopeful words through the sound of his own sadness. And that makes him heroic! Right?"

I got "and that makes him tragic."

I don't think the story is saying that heroes have to be unhappy--Jack, Martha, and Sarah Jane are all heroes--but that the Doctor is so traumatized and depressed that he pushes his own potential happiness away even when it's handed to him on a silver platter.

Which is still really sad and not the hopeful story I was, um, hoping for.

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

The only reason I'm under the impression that I think the show's trying to say "His unhappiness makes him heroic" rather than just "His unhappiness makes him tragic" is that they flat-out stated it on Confidential. I should probably learn to listen only to the actors on Confidential, because they seem to know what the show should be about a greater percent of the time than the producers &c do. Which is a bit of a scary thought.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, er, I tend to ignore all that metatextual stuff. Especially when a work is created by committee and you get disagreements even amongst the creators.

I think maybe the Doctor's unhappiness adds to his heroism--that it's more heroic because it's harder for him to keep moving forward and saving the universe when he's so unhappy. But ultimately he's heroic because he helps people, not because of his emotional state while he does it.

And that's really sad, because one of the things I loved most about seasons one and two was that you got to see heroes saving the universe and being happy while they did it. I've never seen another show do that--everything else tells us that being extraordinary makes you miserable--and it seems to have been canceled out here, now that we've been told that heroism = misery after all.

(But what really gets me is it doesn't have to be. The Doctor creates his own unhappiness when he sends Rose away--it's his choice. Self-hating and self-sacrificing and masochistic as it is, it's his own damn issues that prevent him from being happy. Not the fact that he's a hero, but the fact that he's screwed up.)

Yeah, I don't hate the story--I think it's beautifully written--but I'm really sad about it.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

That, and the Doctor having to be lonely and tragic to be heroic is just ridiculous -- which incarnations one personally thinks are more or less heroic aside, the old Doctors were very seldom companionless and being sad! and alone! and I don't find myself thinking, "Oh, Ten is absolutely so much more heroic than they were."

I know! I keep thinking of Four trying to pull off angst the way Ten does, and then I start laughing. I always love multi-Doctor stories, but now I want them just so some of his previous incarnations can whack Ten upside the head.

And, yes, the Tenth Doctor does sad in an aesthetically pleasing way, but I think at this point most of us wish he would be happy more often.

He also does happy in an aesthetically pleasing way. I mean, look at your icon, and my icon! And the first thing about David Tennant that I fell in love with was his smile. I am very very sad that lately RTD has given him so little opportunity to show off that gorgeous smile. *sigh*

You know, much like the Doctor needs to look up the word "impossible" in a dictionary, I think RTD needs to look up the word "hope".

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

though I hope fandom comes up with a better way of referring to these two soon

Doctor Who and Doctor Two?

I dunno. Works better than "You know, that other guy."

I just...don't understand why the Doctor has to be such a tragic, lonely figure.

I wonder if RTD is projecting some of his angst onto the character. (Not sure what RTD would be so angsty, but whatever.) Or maybe he's one of those writers who just takes pleasure in his favorite character's pain. (I'm guilty of that sometimes.)

But this season finale was way, way, way over the top.

And I was just thinking, I could have handled it better if, for example, after Sarah Jane reminded the Doctor that he had a big family, she invited him over for tea and to meet her awesome son, and he'd accepted. The end. It wouldn't really put a bandaid on what happened to Rose or Donna, but it would have been nicer than that ton-of-bricks-to-the-head ending.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Hee. I keep seeing 10 and 10.5 (which I might use, except that I wince at seeing numbers in prose. XD), as well as Doctor (or Ten) and human!Doctor (or human!Ten). It'd be nice to have some sort of convention for this soon.

And I was just thinking, I could have handled it better if, for example, after Sarah Jane reminded the Doctor that he had a big family, she invited him over for tea and to meet her awesome son, and he'd accepted.

Exactly! My last post I listed three things I would change, and that was one of them. I just want some indication that the Doctor realizes he's not actually alone! Except apparently RTD thinks he makes a better hero if he's lonely, which is blurgh.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I don't really think he's worried about having different rules for Rose. He hardly even seems to realize that he gives her special treatment.

I think the core of it is what Davros told him when he "revealed his soul"--that the Doctor turns his friends into weapons. He doesn't want Rose to kill or to die for him. He'd rather she be safe without him than be responsible for her destruction, like in PotW and Doomsday. Those situations are always going to come up, his companions are always at risk, and when it's Rose he can't stand the thought. And he's always been too afraid to open up because he knows he'll outlive her. I'm with you--I wanted him to open up and love despite the pain--but I understand why he didn't. It's a tragedy, but I can't hate him for it; I just pity him.

I thought the story did follow from their characters. It's just the most guilt-ridden, self-punishing, controlling aspect of the Doctor's character that's coming out here. And it's the aspect of Rose that needs to hear the words, that doesn't need a mortgage and tiembabies but needs emotional honesty, and I can't blame her for being happy when she gets it.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Heh, apparently there's the incoherence I was worried about. I don't think he was consciously thinking about his special treatment for Rose, possibly unless it's in terms of "I want to put her first and that's not a good idea", but this was an idea I was seeing in fic and other reaction posts that I wanted to refute.

It's not that this ending is precisely out of character; it's just that I don't think it matched the character and relationship arcs as well as Doomsday did.