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May. 25th, 2008 09:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneAh, the Glorious 25th of May. I have no idea where my copy of Night Watch is--which is not unusual considering the several hundred books I've got scattered around my room--but alas, that means I can't reread it. Very sad. I hope everyone is still able to find Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably-Priced Love, and a Hard-Boiled Egg. *g*
Now to talk about DW again, because apparently I just can't shut up about this show. I have some Thoughts, and now I'm going to try and work them out and see if I can get them to make sense.
A few days ago I came across some old GitF reaction posts, from back when the episode originally aired. I don't remember how I found them and don't remember many specifics of what they said, but at least one of them prompted a sort of epiphany, I guess. I still don't like the episode, but I've been finding reasons to like it a bit better.
One of the reasons I dislike that episode is that it's difficult for me to buy the Doctor loving Reinette, especially when he has Rose. In our discussion on the episode,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thunderemerald brought up the idea that the Doctor, being an alien, might not understand the human idea of exclusive relationships. That's still not something I believe (if he didn't understand exclusive relationships, he wouldn't have been jealous of Mickey, Adam, or Jack), but it's a sort of twist on that idea that I just rather randomly realized.
In regards to the Doctor's companions, I do believe he loves them all. I don't believe he loves them all the same way, and that the way he loves Rose is more romantic/sexual than the way he loves, say, Zoe or Sarah Jane or Donna. I think he loves them all, and that his love for one does not diminish his love for any of the others. If I frame Reinette as a companion, albeit one who didn't get to travel with him, it's a lot easier to understand him loving her without considering her a threat to Rose.
The Doctor gets emotionally invested even when he doesn't mean to. It happened with Martha, despite the constant refrain of "just one trip!", and it happened with Jenny, despite his efforts to separate himself from her. He loves very, very easily--which is actually one of the reasons I love him. So I can see him starting with a historical figure crush on Madame de Pompadour, and coming to love Reinette, whether he realized it was happening or not. I don't even really mind the sexual edge--like in Torchwood, I don't mind the sexual edge to Gwen and Jack, even though Gwen chooses Rhys. After all, at the end of this episode, the Doctor still chooses Rose.
Another thing I have not been very pleased about, and still am not even with these thoughts, is how we get no indications he ever thinks about Reinette again, and how he starts the next episode laughing and being possessive of Rose. The not-mentioning her thing I previously took as a sign that his feelings weren't very deep, but now that I think about it more, it's really just his modus operandi. The only previous companions I can recall him mentioning to later companions are Victoria Waterfield (Four to Sarah Jane, in Pyramids of Mars), Rose, and Martha. It's just standard practice for him not to talk about people after they're gone, and Reinette is probably part of that. I still don't know what to think about the Rise of the Cybermen opening, but I guess I can just chalk that up to continuity issues. (This one, at least, isn't GitF's fault, I suppose.)
His intention to have Rose and Reinette on the TARDIS together I have to fanwank a bit, but I think I've come up with something that fits and I can deal with. I don't think the Doctor is asexual, but we know he just doesn't jump to those conclusions as easily as humans do. This is the guy who, after Rose, Reinette, and Martha, still didn't understand why the Adipose rep in Partners in Crime wanted to give him her phone number. In the commentary, Steven Moffat joked than he wouldn't have understood why Rose and Reinette might not want to share a TARDIS and Mickey would have to explain it to him--which, okay, maybe would happen, but then he would understand. I think (but can't confirm, since I haven't heard the commentary) that Moffat said the Doctor wouldn't understand because he doesn't get the whole human only loving one person thing, but I definitely disagree there, because that would make the Doctor a hypocrite. The only way I could feasibly see him continuing to not understand is if he doesn't think of Reinette as a threat to Rose the way Rose would think she is. That way the disconnect comes, not from not understanding jealousy (since he clearly does), but from him knowing that there's nothing to be jealous about--he may think that Reinette is awesome, and would like to show her the stars, but for him, it's still Rose Comes First.
The Doctor's character and motivations in this episode, and more specifically my inability to understand them, was one of the reasons I dislike this episode so much. Now that I think I've figured them out more, I like the episode better. (Not that I actually like it, though. I still don't like the continuity issues, the "king's wife and king's girlfriend" parallels and implications, the lack of resolution, Reinette herself, the mind-meld, and how the Doctor goes off to dance when Rose is in potential danger. I just like it better than I did before.)
I still have a few issues with the Doctor in this episode--notably, that going off to dance thing--but he's no longer so incomprehensible.
Now to talk about DW again, because apparently I just can't shut up about this show. I have some Thoughts, and now I'm going to try and work them out and see if I can get them to make sense.
A few days ago I came across some old GitF reaction posts, from back when the episode originally aired. I don't remember how I found them and don't remember many specifics of what they said, but at least one of them prompted a sort of epiphany, I guess. I still don't like the episode, but I've been finding reasons to like it a bit better.
One of the reasons I dislike that episode is that it's difficult for me to buy the Doctor loving Reinette, especially when he has Rose. In our discussion on the episode,
thunderemerald brought up the idea that the Doctor, being an alien, might not understand the human idea of exclusive relationships. That's still not something I believe (if he didn't understand exclusive relationships, he wouldn't have been jealous of Mickey, Adam, or Jack), but it's a sort of twist on that idea that I just rather randomly realized.In regards to the Doctor's companions, I do believe he loves them all. I don't believe he loves them all the same way, and that the way he loves Rose is more romantic/sexual than the way he loves, say, Zoe or Sarah Jane or Donna. I think he loves them all, and that his love for one does not diminish his love for any of the others. If I frame Reinette as a companion, albeit one who didn't get to travel with him, it's a lot easier to understand him loving her without considering her a threat to Rose.
The Doctor gets emotionally invested even when he doesn't mean to. It happened with Martha, despite the constant refrain of "just one trip!", and it happened with Jenny, despite his efforts to separate himself from her. He loves very, very easily--which is actually one of the reasons I love him. So I can see him starting with a historical figure crush on Madame de Pompadour, and coming to love Reinette, whether he realized it was happening or not. I don't even really mind the sexual edge--like in Torchwood, I don't mind the sexual edge to Gwen and Jack, even though Gwen chooses Rhys. After all, at the end of this episode, the Doctor still chooses Rose.
Another thing I have not been very pleased about, and still am not even with these thoughts, is how we get no indications he ever thinks about Reinette again, and how he starts the next episode laughing and being possessive of Rose. The not-mentioning her thing I previously took as a sign that his feelings weren't very deep, but now that I think about it more, it's really just his modus operandi. The only previous companions I can recall him mentioning to later companions are Victoria Waterfield (Four to Sarah Jane, in Pyramids of Mars), Rose, and Martha. It's just standard practice for him not to talk about people after they're gone, and Reinette is probably part of that. I still don't know what to think about the Rise of the Cybermen opening, but I guess I can just chalk that up to continuity issues. (This one, at least, isn't GitF's fault, I suppose.)
His intention to have Rose and Reinette on the TARDIS together I have to fanwank a bit, but I think I've come up with something that fits and I can deal with. I don't think the Doctor is asexual, but we know he just doesn't jump to those conclusions as easily as humans do. This is the guy who, after Rose, Reinette, and Martha, still didn't understand why the Adipose rep in Partners in Crime wanted to give him her phone number. In the commentary, Steven Moffat joked than he wouldn't have understood why Rose and Reinette might not want to share a TARDIS and Mickey would have to explain it to him--which, okay, maybe would happen, but then he would understand. I think (but can't confirm, since I haven't heard the commentary) that Moffat said the Doctor wouldn't understand because he doesn't get the whole human only loving one person thing, but I definitely disagree there, because that would make the Doctor a hypocrite. The only way I could feasibly see him continuing to not understand is if he doesn't think of Reinette as a threat to Rose the way Rose would think she is. That way the disconnect comes, not from not understanding jealousy (since he clearly does), but from him knowing that there's nothing to be jealous about--he may think that Reinette is awesome, and would like to show her the stars, but for him, it's still Rose Comes First.
The Doctor's character and motivations in this episode, and more specifically my inability to understand them, was one of the reasons I dislike this episode so much. Now that I think I've figured them out more, I like the episode better. (Not that I actually like it, though. I still don't like the continuity issues, the "king's wife and king's girlfriend" parallels and implications, the lack of resolution, Reinette herself, the mind-meld, and how the Doctor goes off to dance when Rose is in potential danger. I just like it better than I did before.)
I still have a few issues with the Doctor in this episode--notably, that going off to dance thing--but he's no longer so incomprehensible.
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no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 06:13 am (UTC)Yes, I've seen something very like these explanations. And they do help me to tolerate the episode. Not like, but tolerate. Ah well.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 06:28 am (UTC)I haven't been in this fandom as long, so I haven't seen that many explanations that make sense to me. :p Even if I'm not the first to think of this stuff, it helps me to get my thoughts about it in order. But while they also help me tolerate the episode, I don't think I'll ever like it.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 06:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 11:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-27 03:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 04:43 pm (UTC)Whaddya think?
no subject
Date: 2008-05-27 03:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-27 05:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-27 05:56 am (UTC)