(no subject)

[rynne]

So, watching Partners in Crime made me want to watch The Runaway Bride again, just to see how Donna's changed. This led to me wanting to watch season three again, first because I've only seen it once, and second, because I want to see if a rewatch makes Martha more interesting. (I liked her just fine, the first time I watched, but it was definitely a passive like. She just never grabbed me the way Rose did--and now the way Donna has, so it's not exclusive to Rose.)


Partners in Crime ended with the Doctor being very explicit about not wanting a romantic relationship. He blamed himself for Martha getting infatuated, and wanted to make sure it didn't happen again.

But rewatching Smith and Jones...he was pretty damn explicit there, too, that he didn't want Martha looking at him like that. Before he kisses her, he tells her that it "means nothing", and later in the TARDIS, he says emphatically that it was just a genetic transfer. He talks about Rose, saying "We were together", which I would definitely have taken in a romantic context, if I'd been a character who had just met the Doctor and didn't know anything about him or his history with Rose. When Martha flirts with him, talking about his tight suit and how he traveled across the universe to ask her on a date, he says, still emphatically, "Don't" and "Stop it". When she says she only goes for humans, he says, "Good".

Honestly, how much clearer could he have gotten?

I don't think the Doctor is blameless in the Unrequited Love Arc of Doom. By Family of Blood, at least, he knows that Martha's infatuated with him, and he ignores it rather than tell Martha (again) that it's not going to happen.

I'm going to keep watching the season and refreshing my memory about what happens in terms of the Martha/Doctor arc, but just rewatching Smith and Jones, the Doctor seems far more discouraging about the prospect of romance than he is encouraging, and I don't think he deserves all the blame for the infatuation.

(Especially since he was seriously manic and crazy in this episode. Talking about getting electrocuted with Ben Franklin, the blue suit and the crazy hair, his radiation dance? I would have respected him for saving everyone, but probably would have thought him way too weird. XD)

Then again, his claiming all the blame is another aspect of his "world revolving around him" thing, which we got way back in Rose. It's in character for him to blame himself. But I've seen several people in fandom seem to blame him for what was wrong with his relationship with Martha, and I will always disagree with that.

Otherwise, I don't have that many thoughts on Smith and Jones. I don't really like how pretty much everyone but Martha panicked when they realized they were on the moon, and I didn't like how, when the Doctor gave his name, Martha said he had to earn that title (seriously, how does she know he hasn't?). I thought the plot was pretty cool, and the plasmavore had a very good actress.

I'm going to watch The Shakespeare Code now. I might edit this post later with some thoughts on that before I go to bed.


The Doctor was sorta rude about Martha's questions--wouldn't he like that she's interested in the mechanics? Though on the other hand, it's not like she (or anyone else from this century) has the background to understand any explanations, so he'd probably think there's no point in trying. And his rudeness is a character trait we're well familiar with by now.

In the bedroom scene, he was oblivious and insensitive...which is also not out of character. Especially given what he was talking about--the mystery. The Big Picture. It's like back in Rose, when the Doctor's thinking about tracking the Nestene Consciousness and Rose is thinking about Mickey. Often the small details just don't occur to him, which is why he thought nothing of him and Martha in the same bed. She assured him just a few hours ago that she wasn't interested, and he took her at her word, so the implications of sharing a bed that Martha sees, he just doesn't. But still, the Doctor knows very well that Rose saw things he missed. She gave him another perspective, and by the end of season two, he was relying on that perspective. He tells Martha that "Rose would know", which Martha's not that happy about, but from his point of view, he has no reason not to mention Rose. Again, just a few hours ago, he told Martha that she wasn't replacing Rose, and Martha agreed. And yeah, he was rather insensitive when he told her that she couldn't be blamed, that she was just a novice and he'd take her home tomorrow, but he was also upfront about giving her one trip, not to mention that he's always been insensitive. Look at how he was with Donna in The Runaway Bride, the times that led to her slapping him. His insensitivity is not restricted to Martha.

Still, I'm not sure how she started loving him. He's oblivious to her attractiveness as a woman, explicitly uninterested in a romantic relationship with her, talks about another woman, is brusk and dismissive about her questions, and dismissive again about her possible contribution because "she's just a novice". Yeah, he's intelligent, sexy, and heroic, but I don't understand how she could ignore everything else to convince herself she's in love with him.

This is not to say that he treated her horribly. He brought her along in the first place, and we know from The Long Game that he only takes the best. He was verbally appreciative of her cleverness when she linked the tetradecahedron (er, is that the right term? *is bad at math*) to the fourteen lines of a sonnet. He trusted her to come with him to confront the witches, and to help him restart his heart. He looked to her for inspiration at the end, and she lived up to it by thinking of the right word to banish the Carrionites. Basically, though the Doctor is sometimes insensitive and oblivious, he also likes, trusts, and respects Martha Jones.

More episodes tomorrow!

Comments

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I don't think either was blameless in their fucked-up relationship. Takes two to tango. Or to not-tango, as the case may be... :)

And oh lordy, how much do I love the radiation dance? SO MUCH! And "Barefoot on the moon!" complete with teeth-click! I LOVE HIS CRAZY!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I don't think either was blameless in their fucked-up relationship. Takes two to tango. Or to not-tango, as the case may be... :)

Yeah, that's something I just thought...is pretty obvious. But I've read a few posts and stuff where people seem to blame the Doctor for everyone that went wrong in Martha's life (ignoring the fact that she could have WALKED AWAY at any time and he would have let her), so part of me wants to watch it again to make sure that I'm not just seeing things. XD

I love his crazy too! And the radiation dance was adorable! But I think this because I know him. If I'd only just met him, I would have respected him for saving the hospital, and maybe even been willing to travel with him and be his friend, but despite how utterly sexy he is, I think I would have thought him too weird to ever consider a romantic relationship with him.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Heehee! Nope, not remotely seeing things. Two to tango. Yadda yadda.

I think at first I'd've agreed with you, but I know I'd've fallen for him eventually, just like Rose did. But before we go off on Mary Sue fantasies, let me just say that I would be the worst companion EVER. I can't even handle loud noises. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Added some thoughts about The Shakespeare Code, in case you're interested. :p

I'd probably fall for him eventually too--well, I already have, heh. Though actually, probably not in season three. If I'd been in Rose's place, with the way the Doctor acted around her, I could have fallen for him. If I'd been in Martha's place, with the way he acted in S3, I doubt it.

(I'd also make a bad companion, though. I hate running. XD)

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Mm. I'm with shinyopals on this one. Adrenaline high + guy saving the universe once a day or so + yeah, body language = crushies.

But even aside from that, the big difference is that were I in Martha's place, I wouldn't BE MARTHA. I mean, aside from being terrible at saving the world, I'm just not nearly as forward as she is, and wouldn't have assumed myself into a "Lookit me I HAS A CRUSH ON U" position of awkwardness -- just because I'd never have the guts to act that way. If I (or she) had taken him at his word and not tried to assume anything more than a completely platonic friendship, Rose's name in that bed wouldn't have meant anything at all, just like you said above. And if she had shut up and LISTENED to him about Rose, instead of getting all huffy every time he brought her up, he might have opened up to her a little (or a lot) more, instead of becoming even more shut down. For me, THAT is where the crush would have come from. Hearing about Gallifrey, and Rose, and the things he's lost, because he'd trust me enough to tell me those things if I was just a friend. And while I have no experience at all with romantic relationships, my whole life is peppered with that kind of intimate friendship. And while it's safer to keep them that way than try to turn them romantic, the crushes really are inevitable.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But even aside from that, the big difference is that were I in Martha's place, I wouldn't BE MARTHA.

Yeah, neither would I--I am also not nearly as forward. And if I did develop a crush on him, for whatever reason, I'm sure mine would have died a natural death somewhere in the middle of the season--by Human Nature/Family of Blood, if not before then.

Adrenaline high + guy saving the universe once a day or so + yeah, body language = crushies.

Mmm, makes more sense now. I wouldn't have been able to ignore all the other stuff the way Martha does, but as we established, I'm not Martha. :p

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

I admit I love Martha but for goodness sake, try and be a little bit more discreet with your crushing after he says he just wants a mate. This is why Donna would be an awesome companion.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'm totally looking forward to Donna as a companion. The "I just want a mate" conversation at the end of Partners in Crime was hilarious. XD

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Yes and Donna will call him on some of his crap. She will be amazing for him :D

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

I can sort of understand Martha's crush/love thing.

Even though the Doctor was very explicit in his words, his actions weren't quite always like that. In conversation, body language/tone of voice are far more important than what is actually being said and the Doctor's actions around Martha in Smith and Jones are far more all over the place, even when his words are all saying the same thing. That and he's quite simply very pretty, so she starts crushing on him.

The "love" element probably comes from the situations they're in, mixed with her crush. She's living on an adrenaline high with a bloke she already fancies who consistently saves the entire universe. Things are a bit intense! That said, I don't think she really loved him as a person: she loved the image she saw, which was partly made up of the image he wanted to project and partly made up of what she wanted to see.

That said, it's not the most brilliantly written romantic relationship ever!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

That said, I don't think she really loved him as a person: she loved the image she saw, which was partly made up of the image he wanted to project and partly made up of what she wanted to see.

That I completely agree with. It's why I usually think of it as infatuation, rather than love.

I'm of two minds about the body language/tone of voice thing. On one hand, yeah, there were some definite mixed signals in both S&J and TSC (being pretty seductive when asking her to take a trip, and no hesitation with getting into one small bed), but I thought, even with added body language, he was on the whole more discouraging than encouraging. I thought about mentioning the scene where the sonic screwdriver died--Martha's trying to tell him something important, and he goes on about how he loved his sonic screwdriver for a bit before he pays attention. If she was thinking about tone of voice, I think his voice matched his words pretty well in the TARDIS at the end of S&J, and he could sound pretty sarcastic and dismissive of her in TSC.

Things are a bit intense!

I think that does explain a lot of it. I was thinking about Gridlock, and how it seemed awfully soon to have Martha believing in him so completely, but when I stopped to think about it, she's known him for a couple days, and in that space of time has seen him save the world twice. Unlike Rose, who gets his mistake with the Gelth and the basement in Cardiff, Martha sees the Doctor consistently heroic and capable. I still think the belief is a bit fast, especially given her "omg I just went off with a strange man" realization, but it doesn't come completely out of nowhere.

That said, it's not the most brilliantly written romantic relationship ever!

As I rewatch, I'm going to see if my current opinion bears this out, but right now I rather think that TPTB needed Martha's infatuation, so that's why she has it. It just...felt a lot more plot-based than character-based, to me.

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

he was on the whole more discouraging than encouraging

Yeah, but sometimes all you need is one or two little things. I don't know about you, but when I fancy someone I can often pinpoint everything he does that backs up he feels the same while completely ignoring things that imply he doesn't.

she's known him for a couple days, and in that space of time has seen him save the world twice

Exactly, and in S&J he sacrifices himself for the world, that's how Martha sees it. It's very heroic. Whereas Nine got held in place by a couple of dummies. Rose sees the Doctor do some amazing things, yes, and she is impressed despite the jokes about not being so; but she also sees him save the world in a more normal, accessible, human way.

I do think it's a bit fast, but in Gridlock she had nothing else. The Doctor was the only hope she had, so she clung to that. And then he appeared on the TV screens grinning and saving them all and that just cemented the hope. If Gridlock hadn't had quite such a glamorous ending with all the cars flying into the sun, maybe she would have not been quite so eager to jump on the faith thing.

It just...felt a lot more plot-based than character-based, to me.

Yeah, Martha came across as very plot-devicey in certain scenes. When Rose said/did something, it always felt like she was doing it because she was Rose. With Martha it sometimes felt like she was because it needed to be said/done by somebody.

I liked Martha well enough on first watch, on second/third watch I was more nitpicky and picked up on the bits I didn't like but these days I like her more every time I rewatch. I can still pick up on bits of her character that I dislike but she feels a bit less like a plot device and a bit more like a character.

Oops, I may have rambled on your LJ!

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I don't know about you, but when I fancy someone I can often pinpoint everything he does that backs up he feels the same while completely ignoring things that imply he doesn't.

Yeah, as ariastar put it in a later comment, Martha's taking "every possible hint". And while I do that with my crushes, I'm also unable to ignore those other things. I think that's part of what makes it harder for me to sympathize with Martha--it seemed like she was being willfully ignorant.

Rose sees the Doctor do some amazing things, yes, and she is impressed despite the jokes about not being so; but she also sees him save the world in a more normal, accessible, human way.

The thing about Nine is that he only has one episode where he directly saves things himself (End of the World). In every other episode, he inspires someone else to do it. Ten does have his moments of inspiring people (like TSC), but he's the one directly saving people more often than Nine is. I think the version of the Doctor that each met definitly influenced the way the relationship initially went. Nine invited Rose to be a partner, if not something more influential than that, in saving the world (as he invited Gwyneth, and Cathica, and Nancy), but more often Ten just needed someone to help him do it.

I do think it's a bit fast, but in Gridlock she had nothing else. The Doctor was the only hope she had, so she clung to that.

That's a definite point. And S3 just kept reinforcing that. Has he ever gotten the landing wrong with Martha, the way he did very early on with Rose? She doesn't quite see how fallible he is until 42 (which doesn't seem to have made an impression in the "Doctor's disciple" thing she's got going), and then Utopia/SoD/LotTL, which is the end.

I can still pick up on bits of her character that I dislike but she feels a bit less like a plot device and a bit more like a character.

I hope that's what happens with me! I want to connect with Martha, I really do, but I'm just finding it sorta difficult right now.

Oops, I may have rambled on your LJ!

I like it when that happens. Discussion is fun! :D (Or at least, it is when I know it's not going to turn nasty on me. Since I know you're not going to randomly start bashing my favorite characters in my LJ--which has happened to me before--ramble away!)

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

I'm also unable to ignore those other things. I think that's part of what makes it harder for me to sympathize with Martha--it seemed like she was being willfully ignorant.

Oh, I should have a medal in willful ignorance, which is why I do sort of sympathise. Or at least, why I can see how it works. But that's a non-DW tl;dr rant for another day! ;-)

The thing about Nine is that he only has one episode where he directly saves things himself (End of the World). In every other episode, he inspires someone else to do it. Ten does have his moments of inspiring people (like TSC), but he's the one directly saving people more often than Nine is.

Good point.

Also, there's how they held themselves. I know it's very easy for people say Nine was the aloof and unavailable one because of how he acts, but honestly I think Ten has that problem more.

Nine took Rose to Platform One with the express purpose of both pushing her pretty hard and giving him an opener for explaining about Gallifrey. That's a pretty explicit reaching-out-for-her.

But s3 Ten has been burned in a completely different way: he reached out to someone and let himself hope he could have forever, and then got screwed. So he clammed up and started lying and avoiding talking about things, but masking it with happy smiles.

But because of that he's putting on an act, he's allowing himself to be held separately to the rest of the universe. It makes it harder to relate to him on an equal level and easier to just help him build his pedestal. Whereas Rose got to see the alien bits, but the Doctor did allow himself to open up with her.

Has he ever gotten the landing wrong with Martha, the way he did very early on with Rose?

Yeah, I noticed that! XD Maybe he fixed the TARDIS in between TRB and S&J! ;-)

And the thing is about 42, even that is over-the-top: she sees him fight off (for a time) the power of an entire sun. She sees him acting even more alien than ever and still able to come up with a solution.

In Blink, when they lose the TARDIS, she's only got the one line and that's showing some slight disillusionment with him: he's lost the TARDIS, what is he without the TARDIS? Compared to Rose in TIP/TSP, who says it's "not so bad". That's not to say I don't feel for Martha, cos god knows working in a show in the 60s can't be fun!

Discussion is fun!

As evidence above: I like to talk Who! ;-)

And character bashing is sucky.

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

I tend to take Martha's side too much on this issue simply because I relate to Martha a lot, and therefore sort of take her being in love with him for granted (because I completely am too). As someone above me said, also, while the Doctor was fairly consistent in saying he wasn't interested, he's also a really physically affectionate guy, and if you're already infatuated you're going to take every possible hint. That said, it isn't the Doctor's fault he's physically affectionate, or that he just really isn't in a place to see Martha as anything as a friend despite her obvious willingness to be the rebound. I don't know, really; it was an unfortunate situation for both of them, and I think I would have liked their relationship a lot more if they could have just been mates. As is, though, I'm glad Martha walked for both their sakes, and I'm glad Martha seems to have moved on (I don't know if you watch Torchwood? she has a comment about having a boyfriend, and my easy money's on Tom Milligan), and I'm glad she gave the Doctor her phone anyway; hopefully when they meet up again they can fall back into the intelligent-saving-of-the-world without any of Martha's really awkward feelings getting in the way.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I wanted to connect with Martha, but I just never really managed it. Frankly, I understand the Doctor far better than I do Martha. I think I couldn't connect with her because he never really did.

As someone above me said, also, while the Doctor was fairly consistent in saying he wasn't interested, he's also a really physically affectionate guy, and if you're already infatuated you're going to take every possible hint.

Okay, that "take every possible hint" bit makes TOTAL SENSE. That's something I did with my crushes, even though I never thought they would ever happen. XD (I also never tried to make them out to be anything more than crushes, but I wasn't in the very intense situations that Martha and the Doctor frequently were.)

I don't know, really; it was an unfortunate situation for both of them, and I think I would have liked their relationship a lot more if they could have just been mates.

Yes, I think I would have too. But I've read a few posts where people have said that basically, for the story of S3 to be told, with the Doctor in the emotional place he's in for most of it, he needed to be unable to connect with his companion, so the unrequited love thing was the vehicle for that.

I liked Martha in Torchwood. She was intelligent and competent, and she missed the Doctor a bit while still being very happy about where she was. I want that Martha.