rantrantrant (MWPP dynamics)

[rynne]

I think I am most probably getting sick. I feel constantly hot, more tired than usual (oi, I'm getting up in the mornings of my own volition, going to be before midnight, and usually getting at least eight or nine hours of sleep, as well as getting more excercise than I usually do during the school year), and I have a headache. I also have an essay due in English tomorrow about a short story I haven't read yet, I have to read the whole of Animal Farm before seven am tomorrow (thank God it's a short book!), and I have swordfighting tonight and therefore not as much time as I'd like. I think I will take migraine pills and tell Kaiden that I'd prefer to just watch or something. I'm going to Ashland on Thursday, and really, thank God. I need the vacation. And too, PSAT day is Wednesday, I don't have to take it, so school starts at noon, and I can go to Japanese instead.

But that's not what I want to rant about.

I think I need to avoid all threads in SCUSA save for the Wolfstar (which I lurk on and always read, marauderthesn, even if I don't have time to post!). Today I was reading this Shipping Tendencies thread, in which the poster asked theorized that more Ron/Hermione shippers preferred Remus/Sirius and more Harry/Hermione preferred Remus/Tonks (which is true for me, though not for others I know--auster comes to mind, who likes H/Hr and R/S), and so of course, someone had to rant about why they don't like one of the ships mentioned. This one ranted about R/S, which is why it got my back up, and said that they don't like how the fic tends to make them into "OMG BEST FRIENDS 4 LIFE" because it was Sirius and James who were close friends and Remus was "the outsider".

That whole idea of "the outsider" annoys me rather more than it should, and it's not just because I ship R/S and dislike S/J. I don't think any member of MWPP was considered an "outsider", not even Peter. Yes, Peter was described by McGonagall as being a tagalong to Sirius and James, but McGonagall really was an outsider, and Peter was trusted enough that he became the Secret Keeper. This is part of my problem with all those "The authors hate Peter so he'll be given a stupid part in the fic, if he gets any at all" fics--Peter was trusted enough to become the Secret Keeper, not only by James, who was essentially entrusting his wife and his son to Peter's care, but by Sirius, who was entrusting his best friend and his godson, and by Lily, who we know loved Harry enough to die for him. I can't imagine any of the three entrusting Harry's life to Peter if they didn't trust him. Peter was no outsider, because outsiders just don't get that level of trust!

But Remus...I just don't get how he can be called an outsider! No, he's not described as being as close to any of them as Sirius and James are to each other, but so what? That means that he's not close at all? *snorts* James and Sirius loved each other like brothers; we know this, because JKR said so, and I'm not to the point where I'm distrusting JKR's word about her characters (save on the math bit, but I understand her plight there *g*). They loved each other, a lot, and I, like pretty much every other R/S shipper I know, don't contest this. I don't need to; I don't find James and Sirius's friendship a threat. Like many, many people have said before me, if James could maintain his friendship with Sirius and still have a serious relationship with Lily, why could Sirius not maintain his friendship with James and have a serious relationship with Remus? (Something I find interesting, too--people who claim that Sirius was too focussed on James for a relationship with Remus don't seem to have any problem shipping him with OFCs. *snort* Hypocrisy! If he's too focussed for a relationship with Remus, he's too focussed for a relationship with anyone.) And really, I rather like Sirius's friendship with James, just like I like Harry's friendship with Ron, and so on. I just don't think that that friendship undermines a possible relationship with Remus, nor would a relationship with Remus undermine that friendship.

But back to the outsider thing, and what utter poppycock I think it is. An outsider. James, Sirius, and Peter became Animagi for him. His name is first on the Map. The other three kept his secret for him (screw the Prank; I can't imagine that it was anything aside from Sirius's impulsiveness combining with his dislike of Snape, and therefore an accident), and you know, big secrets like that and the Animagi tend to bind people together. It's because they became Animagi that they were able to create much of the Map; Remus says in PoA that transforming into animals was what let them explore the castle and grounds so thouroughly. Remus was the catalyst.

I remember a couple months ago, donnaimmaculata wrote an essay on MWPP dynamics. At the time I didn't really like the theory posed, that MWPP as a group was dysfunctional and only showed real cohesiveness to outsiders (paraphrased--read the original essay; it's quite interesting, at least), but that is partly because I'm an idealist and I don't like thinking of my favorite characters (Remus and Sirius) and my favorite group of characters (MWPP) as dysfunctional. I'm still not sure I like it, partly for that same reason, but also partly because friendship is an incredibly important theme in HP and I can't see JKR undermining that by having made MWPP intentionally dysfunctional. The Snape's Pensieve scene (which I feel is still subjective, because memory is flavored by experience and filtered in through experience, even if Snape can recall a scene twenty years ago perfectly, which I doubt, and it's still his memory that's gone into the Pensieve), which so many, including donnaimmaculata use as a basis for how they think of the group dynamic, because it's the only one we've seen, is not indicative of how the group worked. There's all sorts of factors that we have to take into account regarding their behavior--some we can't make excuses for, such as that Sirius and James were arrogant, Peter was obsequious, Remus's backbone temporarily evaporated--but you have to take into account the situation as well. They'd just come from taking a test, one very important to their futures in the wizarding world. However confident James and Sirius may have been, there had to be some element of stress there (I won't be falsely modest here; I'm a good test-taker and fairly intelligent, and I still get nervous and stressful around big tests, much less ones that may determine my entire career!), and stress and nerves affect peoples' behavior. Peter may have been so obsequious not only because Snape sees him as such, but because his nerves over the test he'd just taken were coming out that way. James and Sirius could have been dealing with their own by becoming even more arrogant than usual, which is not uncommon behavior in boys their age. Any of the character flaws shown by MWPP in that scene could have been magnified by stress and nerves due to the test. So basically, again, don't take Snape's Worst Memory at face value.

Another thing about MWPP in school--unlike a great deal of fandom, it seems, I'm their age. I just turned seventeen, which was about the age they were when the Prank happened. I'm not too far from fifteen, my little sister is fifteen, and I go to school with fifteen-year-old boys. James and Sirius were bullies, yes. That can't be denied, and I'm not going to bother. I'm convinced that Snape gave as good as he got, because I can't imagine a person with his personality and his pride doing otherwise. And JKR, who's job it is to know her characters, said that one of Remus's main flaws is that he likes to be liked, and that comes out in Snape's Worst Memory as why he didn't stop James and Sirius so quickly. That's all right; everyone has to have flaws, and even me with my idealism won't make Gary Stus of the characters by making them seem perfect. But I know people their age, and even if it's not ideal behavior, it's normal, and neither James nor Sirius would have grown into psychopaths because they were bullies at fifteen/sixteen. We know that James, at least, grew up enough to be considered a good man by Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, and so on (and I trust McGonagall's judgment, at least, even if she is prejudiced towards Quidditch players). Sirius probably would have grown up too, if he'd been given a chance.

Sirius. One of the most contested characters in fandom. Loved by many, detested by many, so many arguments break out about him (his death, his sexuality, his maturity, his family, etc) that it's amazing. I'm not going to go into him and his motives and everything, as I still have a school essay to write and nearly a full book to read, but I don't think he had mental problems. I think he was an abused child, verbally if nothing else, and while it didn't make him the nicest or most comfortable person to be around, I don't think he was mentally unbalanced because of it. I think that James, Remus, and yes, even Peter, were truly his friends (he trusted Peter with his best friend and his godson's lives, remember?), and that, with a dog's loyalty, he would have done anything for them. I think the Prank was an accident brought about by a combination of his impulsiveness and his dislike of Snape, as well as trying to protect Remus by scaring Snape away from the Shack and their business. It went wrong, of course, but I think Remus might have recognized that protectiveness for what it was, and that's why it doesn't seem to bother him so much, and that's why Sirius doesn't regret it; he doesn't regret trying to scare Snape and protect Remus, and dammit, it's all perfectly natural. The thing that seems to blow it all out of proportion is that magic is involved and therefore things are more dangerous, but like blacksatinrose has said, the wizarding world doesn't seem to think much of a fourteen-year-old and three seventeen-year-olds fighting dragons and all the others tasks in the Triwizard tournament, and there's Harry's yearly escapades, and in the wizarding world, danger just doesn't seem to be something that needs to be as actively avoided as we, who have no magic, must. And don't forget, for Sirius's adult life, that through most of PoA he's really quite insane, or at least not quite sane, and in OotP is quite understandably depressed, being forced to do nothing useful in a childhood house filled to the brim with bad memories while his godson and his friends are in danger. What I'm basically saying here is, cut Sirius some slack!

But back to my original point, and the original thing that I was ranting about--I think that there are no "outsiders" in MWPP. Nor that something like that would prevent Sirius and Remus from being lovers, because even if they weren't bestbest friends when James was around, you can't deny that they were friends, and that Peter was their friend too. It's not just the written canon that makes me think this, but JKR's general theme of friendship, because there's the incredibly important example of friendship in the books, the Trio, and look what they can do because of it! They make up for each other's weaknesses. MWPP did that too, WPP helping M with his weakness, and so on. And I just can't imagine that JKR would intentionally make MWPP dysfunctional or any of them "outsiders" or whatever. Not with friendship being given the thematic importance that it has.

...That was long. Time for me to shut up and do some work to ensure I don't fail my classes.

Coming sometime later, and inspired by froda_baggins--me on religion. Oh joy.

Comments

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

But I know people their age, and even if it's not ideal behavior, it's normal, and neither James nor Sirius would have grown into psychopaths because they were bullies at fifteen/sixteen.

Very well said. This rant has hit a bunch of points square on. I think the pensive scene is taken far too much at surface value by many; it was JKR's way of showing Harry that his father had been human, no more and no less.

And I just have to add that Harry's uninvited poking into Snape's pensive was far, far worse than anything James or Sirius did in the memory itself. But because we know so much more about Harry, he is seldom judged by this one instance of very bad behavior.

[chimbleysweep]

I second that (well, third it ;).

Wonderfully well done.

[tinitinytina.livejournal.com]

theorized that more Ron/Hermione shippers preferred Remus/Sirius and more Harry/Hermione preferred Remus/Tonks

Not quite true for me either. I love R/S, and I'm staunchly H/Hr and very anti Hr/R although I see the reasoning behind it. And I also have to say I'm fairly S/J too. In fact, I'm ok with any of the MWPP with another one of the MWPP. Or more than one. The only thing that kinda of dampens anything with James is that he obviously was very much in love with Lily, so at best, he'd be bi, not gay. (Slightly OT, but have you ever read that article by someone about James using Imperius on Lily? Quite interesting).

As for your rant, well said. I think you really covered everything I wanted to say, and I pretty much agree with everything. While I understand S/J, I see their relationship as transcending sexual desire. Maybe they did experiment, but hell, they're probably more brothers than anything. Any love they had would most likely, and logically, be platonic. On the other hand, I can, obviously, see R/S. I can also see R/J if you go into animal domination.

Peter. I'm not a big fan of Peter because of my bias towards MPP-L, but I do give him his credit. I can never tolerate authors who have Peter shunned by his friends and mocked. Perhaps J and S were a bit sarcastic/harsh towards him at times, which could be a motive in his turning to the dark side, but until his true reason for betrayal is known, I don't think we can really say too much on that. The fact that they helped him turn Animagi, counted him as one of the group, trusted him to keep Remus's werewolf secret, made the map with him, and shared the Invisibility Cloak shows his importance to the group. I don't see how people can argue otherwise.

Nor do I like it when authors write a seventh year fic and have Peter doing all sorts of mysterious dark deeds. Lily and James were killed FIVE years after their graduation. Sirius accused Peter of giving out information a year before their death. He may have said "at least" but I'm not sure since I haven't read HP canon in a LONG time. And yes, I know Sirius may be a bit unbalanced and a bit biased at this point, but still, it's the only info we have to work on. By my calculations, that leaves 4 years of Peter not being a traitor. Not only that, but the fact that he revered James and Sirius make me think that it was highly unlikely of him to have turned bad in his seventh year. Hogwarts would have sheltered him from a lot of the harsh realities of war, and the glamour of James and Sirius's friend would have (in my opinion) kept him from "straying."

I haven't read that essay about MWPP being dysfuctional although I do plan to (have to finish Northwestern's essay first), but I can see an imbalance. R is by no means weak, but he's quieter than J and S, so some people can easily construe that as being spineless and weak. That's not true. He obviously held some influence over the others, but outwardly, J and S had the dominant positions, and J was seen as the gang leader. I can see the reasoning behind that, although, like you, I don't wish to acknowledge it.

Oki doke, I know a lot of this was random, senseless ramblings. I'm tired, and the screen's blurring. @_@ G'luck with hw.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Heh. I don't have any particular Trio ship (I like R/Hr, H/R, and H/R/Hr), but if there's one that I could do without, it's H/Hr. *shrugs* Their dynamic is just not one that appeals to me, really. Also, I did read that James-Lily-Imperius argument, and thought it was interesting, but James is one of my favorite characters, I can't stand the thought of him doing something like that, and moreover, with the canon we have, I can't imagine him having done it.

I still don't like S/J, for reasons I'm not entirely sure of myself, but otherwise, word to everything you said. *g*

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

I totally shouldn't answer this because I'm about to go to bed haha. But I will say!

I'm not an idealist, and I do thing the MWPP dynamic reads a bit like Sirius & James were the ringleaders and Remus and Peter sort of stood a bit back. But I wouldn't say that made anyone outsiders, no. I think it was a clique, basically, and like any clique you've got the aggressive personalities and the more passive sorts. Remus, at least as a teenager, was more the follower sort, and Peter clearly was a follower (and remains so) whereas Sirius and James had sort of aggressive/commanding personalities. So... I think I mostly agree with you?

I mean, I don't see the group as four equals by any means, but I don't think there was anyone left out, either.

The thing about Sirius being unable to sustain a relationship with Remus because of James is just silly. Aww hell, you know how I feel about that, and God knows I could rant for decades. But suffice to say, Sirius and James were best friends, they were brothers in all but blood. If no one who had such a deep friendship could also have a lover the world would be sad indeed.

(And I had noticed that as well, the OFC thing.)

Finally, from what I've seen there are more Ron/Hermione fans who are Remus/Sirius fans than Remus/Tonks fans, yeah - I suspect it's the similar dynamic? I mean, there are other reasons, but the dynamic is similar. I haven't really noticed any correlation between Harry/Hermione and Remus/Tonks, but then I don't know many Harry/Hermione or Remus/Tonks fans, haha.

[fraught.livejournal.com]

Finally, from what I've seen there are more Ron/Hermione fans who are Remus/Sirius fans than Remus/Tonks fans, yeah - I suspect it's the similar dynamic? I mean, there are other reasons, but the dynamic is similar.

I just rambled a bit about this to rynne, but I don't really see a similar dynamic between S/R and R/Hr. If the dynamics were similar, I doubt I'd be shipping S/R, as the R/Hr interaction usually does nothing but irritate me :P.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Weeell, I was half-asleep when I wrote that, so let's rephrase it to "a lot of Ron/Hermione fans who are also Remus/Sirius fans see the dynamic as similar."

I see them as KIND OF similar, myself (on a basic level) but I don't think the comparison runs particularly deep.

Of course I'm not a Ron/Hermione shipper, so I don't know much about the perception of their relationship, so.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, James and Sirius were the ringleaders. That's obvious, and we knew that from PoA. And I suspect that it was Remus's twelve years alone that made him into a leader, so yeah, he was a follower when in school. Not something I'm disputing.

What I hate, really, is the idea that if James and Sirius were such close friends, no one else could have been close enough to either of them to...I dunno, really know them? That because they were such close friends, they are the ones who are more likely to be lovers. *snort*

I don't really see them as four equals either--or at least, I think that Sirius prized his friendship with James above his friendship with Remus and with Peter, and James the same as Sirius. Though the line would have been muddied a bit if/when Sirius and Remus got together, as now there's the tie of love as well as the tie of friendship between them--I somewhat morbidly wonder what James would do if given a choice between Sirius and Lily, and (assuming that Sirius and Remus were indeed in love, which I do) what Sirius would have done if he had to choose between James and Remus. (This assuming a time of peace, with no suspicion of betrayal to cloud their minds) I don't know that the decision would be as simple as much of fandom would make it out to be.

Well, I see that auster's already said her piece on R/Hr-R/S dynamics, but it always depends on the person, I suppose. H/Hrs would (and do) see similarities between H/Hr and R/S, and R/Hrs (me included) see similarities between them and R/S. It's all based on interpretation, like pretty much everything else I've said. *g*

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Behold my amazing amounts of agreement with everything you just said. ;)

THERE IS NO POINT TO THIS REPLY. >:O

[louve-mae.livejournal.com]

Very well said, Rynne, I totally agree with you.

And I don't know about H/R-S/R vs H/H-R/T, but I sure can't stand R/T, brrr. I don't mind either H/R or H/H, though.

[fraught.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah, I'm H/Hr and S/R and I hate Remus/Tonks because I think it's based on the fact they're both carbon-based life forms rather than actual canon. Having now antagonized all of R/T-dom, I will say I don't know if there's any correlation between shipping H/Hr and R/T, mostly because I don't know many R/T fans.

I will say that I disagree with blacksatinrose on the dynamic between Sirius and Remus being similar to Ron and Hermione -- I don't see that at all, and while there may be some surface similarities between Remus and Hermione, they are two very different persons (come on, not all bookworms are the same!). (For instance, while Remus doesn't speak up because he wants to be liked, Hermione does speak up, even if people dislike her because of it. With Lavender's rabbit, to name one instance, and with telling Harry he has a "saving people thing". They didn't want to hear that, but she said it anyway.)

And word on the rest of your post, especially the Peter bit and the Sirius/OFC bit.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah, I'm H/Hr and S/R and I hate Remus/Tonks because I think it's based on the fact they're both carbon-based life forms rather than actual canon.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

...yeah that's why I hate Remus/Tonks too. *alienates R/T shippers as well*

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Don't forget, carbon-based life forms of different genders! I think the reason Remus/Tonks was so eagerly seized upon was because Tonks is female and not plus or minus twenty years of Remus's age.

Though the R/Hr-R/S dynamic is based entirely on interpretation--I, as a R/Hr and R/S shipper, see the dynamic, while you, as a devout H/Hr and R/S shipper, wouldn't necessarily. I think it mostly depends on how you see R/Hr's bickering (though let's please not get into a debate on that--I know how most H/Hr shippers see it, and I suspect you know how most R/Hr shippers see it, and we both know the two views are likely to be reconciled, so it doesn't matter), especially considering how many fics/authors have R/S routinely bantering with each other (including me *g*). *shrugs* Interpretation, all of it.

[fraught.livejournal.com]

Don't forget, carbon-based life forms of different genders! I think the reason Remus/Tonks was so eagerly seized upon was because Tonks is female and not plus or minus twenty years of Remus's age.

*nod* Yep. I know this won't make me popular with the R/T shippers, but I consider it an almost desperate ship -- "Remus' got no one! I mean, no woman! Oh, here's one who's looked at him twice and who's been in the same room as him! OTP!!11one!" Geez, I know far-fetched slash pairings with better justifications.

And here I originally wen't into a long babble on S/R and R/Hr and witty bantering versus petty sniping, complete with citing a HP4GU post *g* -- and you said you didn't want to go into that, which I respect, so I'll take it over to my own journal. I'll just say that if Ron and Hermione did banter playfully as Sirius and Remus do in many stories, I would ship them in a heartbeat :D. I really do love banter.

Addendum to original reply

[rynne.livejournal.com]

...aren't likely to be reconciled. Stupid typos...

[jedibix783.livejournal.com]

I really liked your view on Snape's pensieve scene... people spend so much time using that as evidence of MWPP's dynamics without taking into account that it is from SNAPE'S POV-- someone who hated MWPP. Memory is never subjective, and too many people completely forget that. I wish JKR would address that, almost, but until then I consider it completely unreliable as a narrative source of how MWPP really acted-- the characters have become caricatures, with their traits exaggerated to fit Snape's emotions.
Fantastic rant, btw.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Memory is never subjective

You mean memory is never objective? *g* Subjective is subject to one's own personal interpretation, which is exactly what memories are. But big agreement on the "traits exaggerated to fit Snape's emotions" bit. The events there happened, and James and Sirius were arrogant berks (especially as it was later confirmed by Sirius and Remus), but like most boys their age who act the Muggle equivalent...they're not that bad.

[jedibix783.livejournal.com]

I actually did mean objective. I think I was either trying to say "memory is always subjective" and "memory is never objective" at the same time and became confused :)

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

What I'm basically saying here is, cut Sirius some slack!

*glomps majorly, knocks over*

The bloke's obviously got some mental health issues. I hate it how some people focus on every mistake he ever made in his life - EVEN THE ONES HE REGRETS - and use it as evidence for him being Teh Ebil Jerk.

[ib-druggie.livejournal.com]

I love it and, if you don't mind, linking to it on my journal. :D

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Of course I don't mind; go ahead! :D Thank you!

[cassandralupos.livejournal.com]

Niiiice rant (and dang, that was long). I agree with you on pretty much every count. The only way I can see Remus and Peter as being "outsiders" is if you use a very very loose definition of the word; i.e., James and Sirius were so close that on some level, everyone was a bit of an outsider, sort of like Fred and George--they had that deep unspoken bond thing going on. And I do think, after all is said and done, Sirius was closer to James than to Remus. But I don't see how this counters the possibility of Sirius and Remus being romantically involved; I think most non-married people consider their best friends closer than their love interests, especially at a young age when being in love is so strange. dorkorific, of Shoebox fame, wrote a fic on her website with a scene that captured the whole everyone-is-an-outsider-to-Sirius-and-James thing very well, with Peter saying "it's hard to be Us, because it means we're not a Them." I think what it comes down to, in the end, is that it's not that Sirius and James excluded Peter and Remus, but rather that they included each other so much that it just reached a whole new level.

I like fics (like Shoebox Project) that feature Peter being picked on and a bit clueless (come on, he missed two of the signs of a werewolf?) but still an integral part of the group. Yes, they teased him and made fun of him for being slow and hanging-on-ish and the like, but that's what teenage boys do. If the teenage boys I know (I'm sixteen) were to suddenly start being NICE to each other as a way of showing how much they care, I might have a heart attack. Just because they make fun of him doesn't mean they care about him less. And say what you will about MWPP, they cared about each other deeply.

I think what a lot of the anti-R/S stuff comes down to in the end is that Remus and Sirius couldn't have been a couple because they wouldn't have been a "good" couple. Myself, I think they worked marvellously together, but even assuming they didn't--how many couples are so perfectly harmonious? How many people have gotten themselves into relationships that were total mistakes? Just because it was (in some views) a bad idea doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. (Honestly, that's like saying Bill and Hilary obviously have never been romantically involved because they made a dysfunctional couple. Pshaw.)

Oh, and, uh, "cut Sirius some slack"? WORD to the nth degree. That's all.