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Jan. 25th, 2009 01:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneSo I've been reading some post-JE D/R fics...
A theme I am commonly finding in Ten II/Rose fic is the distinction of sex, and the idea that Ten II is better for Rose because he would happily have sex with her while Ten I wouldn't have. That even if Rose traveled with a fully Time Lord Doctor for the rest of her life, that Doctor would have been absolutely fine not having sex with her, and therefore Rose is better off with Ten II.
This bothers me. I mean, I love Ten II/Rose and I'm sure they're going to have a fantastic life together. I also don't think the Doctor and Rose had sex prior to Doomsday, no matter how much I like reading it in fic or how that "You're not...?" sounded like the Doctor thought she might have been pregnant with his baby.
Part of my irritation with the idea that the Doctor would have been fine not physically loving Rose is probably due to that other idea to which some members of fandom so tightly cling, that Time Lords are above humans and they're just not compatible enough in the mental/emotional sphere for a real relationship.
I've always cried bullshit to that idea. Sometimes I think I'm the only person who remembers Susan/David Campbell, or Leela/Andred--not one, but two Time Lord/human (or at the least, Gallifreyan/human) pairings in canon. In Classic canon, even. And, unlike Looms, it's not even the dubious book canon--both Susan/David and Leela/Andred are undisputable TV canon. If we want to go to the controversial TV movie, then there's further proof with the Doctor's parents.
According to canon, Time Lords are perfectly capable of having committed relationships with humans. The question then becomes, would the Doctor, especially post-Time War, let himself be in such a relationship? A man damaged by war and the loss of almost everything he cared about, who no longer shares the burden of the universe with the rest of his people and now has it resting on his shoulders alone, and who feels that burden acutely--would he let himself have a relationship that goes beyond hugs and handholding? Of course there's a part of him that's a man, a person, with his own hopes and dreams and emotions, but there's also the part of him that is the Lonely God (however much I hate the title and the concept). The Doctor has a keen sense of responsibility, and at one point, that part of him that is the Lonely God might have presented him with a choice between Rose and the universe, and compelled him to pick the universe.
Maybe the Doctor was so afraid of what the future might bring that he wouldn't move his relationship with Rose forward. Maybe he just didn't feel the same biological urge for sex that humans do, and therefore resistance would not have been a true hardship for him. Maybe he could have spent Rose's whole life with her and not once had sex with her.
I just, frankly, don't believe it.
That fear of the future--of course he had it. I wouldn't be surprised if it never went away. But honestly, I really do think S2 was the story of him coming to terms with that, of him going from thinking "wither and die" to "how long are you going to stay with me?" and smiling at "forever". I seriously think he was really dealing with that fear.
I can buy him not feeling the same urges. Different species, longer lifespan, more time in which to reproduce--whatever. But we know from canon that Time Lords are capable of that kind of relationship with humans, so different urges does not necessarily mean a complete lack of them altogether. Then the question is would the Doctor personally be inclined to that kind of relationship--and you know what, I think he would.
I'm capable of that, too. And not only is he capable of it, but he wants it. He's asking for it. John Smith and Joan were already at the kissing stage, and judging by what the watch showed them when they touched it together, were fantasizing about marriage and children. On one hand, it definitely is another along the theme of "the one adventure he could never have", the adventure Ten II gets to have with Rose--but on the other hand, marriage and children imply sex. The Doctor is trying to offer Joan the kind of relationship she could have had with John Smith, which would mean the eventual inclusion of sex.
I have always had the firm belief that Ten I refrained from saying "I love you" to Rose in JE because he wanted her to pick Ten II, and I think he wanted her to pick Ten II not because he himself was incapable of giving her the kind of relationship that she could have with Ten II, but for other advantages Ten II had. Even if the Doctor had been dealing with the "wither and die" issue, and been willing to stay with her anyway, that doesn't mean he would have been happy to watch it happen to her, and this way he didn't have to. I think another big factor was her family--he's always known how important her family was to her, and respected that. By leaving her and Ten II in the parallel universe, he made sure that she didn't have to make a choice between him and her family.
Do I think that sex and hormones and so on are different for Ten II than for Ten I? No idea. I have no objection to the idea that Ten II doesn't have as much control over his hormones, that he ends up more immersed in passion, that sex is somewhat different. That's plausible. There are things he can offer her that Ten I can't, such as growing old together. Maybe greater immersion in the sensations and emotions of sex is one of those things, and maybe not--we don't really know what sex for Time Lords is like. I have no objections to the idea of sex being different for Time Lords and humans, but I also have no objection to sex not being so different after all.
I believe that if there had been no metacrisis, the Doctor would have kept her with him. I also believe that they would eventually have begun a sexual relationship, because I think the Doctor is just as capable of it as a Time Lord as he is as a part-human. I just see no evidence to believe that he's not.
And the idea that the Time Lord Doctor is not capable of offering Rose what the part-human Doctor can feels to me like a slight to both of them. Ten I becomes incapable of that kind of relationship, which is sad and horrible, but it also feels like Ten II doesn't have enough to recommend him on his own. He has to be more than Ten I in order to justify Rose choosing him over Ten I, as if he's not good enough should their capabilities be equal.
I don't think this is what people were thinking when they wrote their stories involving this theme. This is just the sense that I personally get from the idea, the aftertaste that it leaves me, and it's one I don't like.
Rose loves Ten I and Ten II, and they both love her, and I love all three of them. I just don't think Ten II needs the kind of advantage over Ten I that I see in those stories--he is, after all, the one who got the girl in the end. What other advantage does he really need?
A theme I am commonly finding in Ten II/Rose fic is the distinction of sex, and the idea that Ten II is better for Rose because he would happily have sex with her while Ten I wouldn't have. That even if Rose traveled with a fully Time Lord Doctor for the rest of her life, that Doctor would have been absolutely fine not having sex with her, and therefore Rose is better off with Ten II.
This bothers me. I mean, I love Ten II/Rose and I'm sure they're going to have a fantastic life together. I also don't think the Doctor and Rose had sex prior to Doomsday, no matter how much I like reading it in fic or how that "You're not...?" sounded like the Doctor thought she might have been pregnant with his baby.
Part of my irritation with the idea that the Doctor would have been fine not physically loving Rose is probably due to that other idea to which some members of fandom so tightly cling, that Time Lords are above humans and they're just not compatible enough in the mental/emotional sphere for a real relationship.
I've always cried bullshit to that idea. Sometimes I think I'm the only person who remembers Susan/David Campbell, or Leela/Andred--not one, but two Time Lord/human (or at the least, Gallifreyan/human) pairings in canon. In Classic canon, even. And, unlike Looms, it's not even the dubious book canon--both Susan/David and Leela/Andred are undisputable TV canon. If we want to go to the controversial TV movie, then there's further proof with the Doctor's parents.
According to canon, Time Lords are perfectly capable of having committed relationships with humans. The question then becomes, would the Doctor, especially post-Time War, let himself be in such a relationship? A man damaged by war and the loss of almost everything he cared about, who no longer shares the burden of the universe with the rest of his people and now has it resting on his shoulders alone, and who feels that burden acutely--would he let himself have a relationship that goes beyond hugs and handholding? Of course there's a part of him that's a man, a person, with his own hopes and dreams and emotions, but there's also the part of him that is the Lonely God (however much I hate the title and the concept). The Doctor has a keen sense of responsibility, and at one point, that part of him that is the Lonely God might have presented him with a choice between Rose and the universe, and compelled him to pick the universe.
Maybe the Doctor was so afraid of what the future might bring that he wouldn't move his relationship with Rose forward. Maybe he just didn't feel the same biological urge for sex that humans do, and therefore resistance would not have been a true hardship for him. Maybe he could have spent Rose's whole life with her and not once had sex with her.
I just, frankly, don't believe it.
That fear of the future--of course he had it. I wouldn't be surprised if it never went away. But honestly, I really do think S2 was the story of him coming to terms with that, of him going from thinking "wither and die" to "how long are you going to stay with me?" and smiling at "forever". I seriously think he was really dealing with that fear.
I can buy him not feeling the same urges. Different species, longer lifespan, more time in which to reproduce--whatever. But we know from canon that Time Lords are capable of that kind of relationship with humans, so different urges does not necessarily mean a complete lack of them altogether. Then the question is would the Doctor personally be inclined to that kind of relationship--and you know what, I think he would.
JOAN:
What must I look like to you, Doctor? I must seem so very small.
THE DOCTOR:
No. We could start again. I'd like that, you and me. We could try, at least. Because everything that John Smith is and was, I'm capable of that, too.
I'm capable of that, too. And not only is he capable of it, but he wants it. He's asking for it. John Smith and Joan were already at the kissing stage, and judging by what the watch showed them when they touched it together, were fantasizing about marriage and children. On one hand, it definitely is another along the theme of "the one adventure he could never have", the adventure Ten II gets to have with Rose--but on the other hand, marriage and children imply sex. The Doctor is trying to offer Joan the kind of relationship she could have had with John Smith, which would mean the eventual inclusion of sex.
I have always had the firm belief that Ten I refrained from saying "I love you" to Rose in JE because he wanted her to pick Ten II, and I think he wanted her to pick Ten II not because he himself was incapable of giving her the kind of relationship that she could have with Ten II, but for other advantages Ten II had. Even if the Doctor had been dealing with the "wither and die" issue, and been willing to stay with her anyway, that doesn't mean he would have been happy to watch it happen to her, and this way he didn't have to. I think another big factor was her family--he's always known how important her family was to her, and respected that. By leaving her and Ten II in the parallel universe, he made sure that she didn't have to make a choice between him and her family.
Do I think that sex and hormones and so on are different for Ten II than for Ten I? No idea. I have no objection to the idea that Ten II doesn't have as much control over his hormones, that he ends up more immersed in passion, that sex is somewhat different. That's plausible. There are things he can offer her that Ten I can't, such as growing old together. Maybe greater immersion in the sensations and emotions of sex is one of those things, and maybe not--we don't really know what sex for Time Lords is like. I have no objections to the idea of sex being different for Time Lords and humans, but I also have no objection to sex not being so different after all.
I believe that if there had been no metacrisis, the Doctor would have kept her with him. I also believe that they would eventually have begun a sexual relationship, because I think the Doctor is just as capable of it as a Time Lord as he is as a part-human. I just see no evidence to believe that he's not.
And the idea that the Time Lord Doctor is not capable of offering Rose what the part-human Doctor can feels to me like a slight to both of them. Ten I becomes incapable of that kind of relationship, which is sad and horrible, but it also feels like Ten II doesn't have enough to recommend him on his own. He has to be more than Ten I in order to justify Rose choosing him over Ten I, as if he's not good enough should their capabilities be equal.
I don't think this is what people were thinking when they wrote their stories involving this theme. This is just the sense that I personally get from the idea, the aftertaste that it leaves me, and it's one I don't like.
Rose loves Ten I and Ten II, and they both love her, and I love all three of them. I just don't think Ten II needs the kind of advantage over Ten I that I see in those stories--he is, after all, the one who got the girl in the end. What other advantage does he really need?
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Date: 2009-01-25 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 11:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 11:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-26 08:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 11:24 pm (UTC)That said, I do think Ten I and Rose were moving toward an intimate relationship when they were parted. They would have become lovers, and probably would've had to adjust to each other's biological drives (or the lack thereof).
One scenario's not necessarily worse than the other; they're just different.
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Date: 2009-01-25 11:36 pm (UTC)It's just--we know the Doctor's had sex before, driving force or not. And I've seen several fics with the idea that the Doctor (as just himself pre-JE, or as Ten I post-JE) would have held himself back from Rose her entire life, and I just don't think that would have happened, if there had been no Ten II. Even if his sex drive is different from humans', I'm convinced he has one. *g*
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Date: 2009-01-26 12:47 am (UTC)Heh, heh! That just cracks me up because my one and only DW fic (http://arabian.livejournal.com/280215.html) deals with that very thing pretty much exactly from TenII's point of view.
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Date: 2009-01-26 03:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 11:48 pm (UTC)You are quite right, in that we've already seen multiple Time Lord/Human pairings, one of which was between a human from a very primitive upbringing and a member of the Citadel guard!
If Ten I and Rose weren't in the slightest bit intimate (and never mind Doom, what about that look Rose gave Donna in TL?), it's not because Time Lords Are Above Such Things or It Was Never Going to Happen.
I've said elsewhere (and you may have seen it) that I think there are multiple reasons Ten I decided that Rose and his counterpart should be together, but perhaps the overriding one would be this: at best, Ten I and Rose would have several decades together, and then she would pass away. He'd have had a respite from his loneliness, a wonderful one, but it would still only be temporary. For Ten II, this new life, with or without Rose, is all that he has. Rose is everything to him. I think Ten I set aside what he wanted for himself, and did so in such a manner that even if he were tempted to come back to steal Rose away, he couldn't.
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Date: 2009-01-26 12:06 am (UTC)Yeah. I do think that if they'd never been separated they still would have eventually gotten to the point of advancing their relationship, but I think it would have taken longer post-Doomsday than it would have post-JE. His time without her would have shown him how much he truly wanted her with him, and I think that does include sexually as well as just for simple companionship. I just can't imagine him getting her back and being content to stay with her her entire life and never have sex with her.
I think Ten I set aside what he wanted for himself, and did so in such a manner that even if he were tempted to come back to steal Rose away, he couldn't.
Yes, exactly. Ten I was being self-sacrificing, because he loves her enough to give her himself and her family, and as well gave part of himself the chance to share that with her. You could pretty much hear in his voice how much it was a sacrifice to do that, and I really think that though there were things he couldn't have given her (like growing old together), his love was never one of them.
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Date: 2009-01-26 12:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-26 12:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-26 01:37 am (UTC)If that pesky Dalek hadn't turned up, I suspect there would have been some serious tonsil-hockey going on. Until Donna marched up, clearing her throat loudly. XD
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Date: 2009-01-26 12:45 am (UTC)First of all, I DO think that Rose/Ten were TOTALLY doing it in S2 -- I even wrote a detailed list on why I was so sure, LOL! See?! Yup, they were totally doing it. (http://arabian.livejournal.com/233241.html) And, I also don't think that Ten didn't say ILU because he wanted TenII to say it so it would be easier for Rose to pick him. I think that while sex is certainly something that he could (and did) do with Rose, saying those words gave a permanence that THIS IS REAL!I LOVE HER! OHMYGOD! THAT MEANS I'M GOING TO LOSE HER! BECAUSE I LOSE EVERYTHING I LOVE! That's why I believe he went for euphemisms, as opposed to never saying the words. And on the beach, he didn't say them, because it's just ingrained in him not to at this point. I really believe that he wouldn't have said that. And we do have the bit of script where originally Rose asked what he was going to say on that beach when she and Ten are held captive by Davros, and even then, he doesn't say it. He pulls out the whole "Does it really need saying?" Because, the Doctor without that dash of Donna in him, COULDN'T say it because of his messed-up psyche.
OTOH, I do agree that it bollocks that Rose is better off with TenII because they can have sex. Even if I didn't believe that she and Ten were, I still wouldn't buy that. She's better off with TenII simply because he won't regenerate while she withers and dies. They can have a full life together. They can actually have each other's forever. She and Ten or any following regeneration could never have that because when her forever ended, his would just keep going.
Rose loves Ten I and Ten II, and they both love her, and I love all three of them. I just don't think Ten II needs the kind of advantage over Ten I that I see in those stories--he is, after all, the one who got the girl in the end. What other advantage does he really need?
Yuppers.
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Date: 2009-01-26 01:15 am (UTC)Because, the Doctor without that dash of Donna in him, COULDN'T say it because of his messed-up psyche.
Well, he was going to tell her in Doomsday. I understand him talking in euphemisms, and I think the thought process you describe would play into that, but he could say it, I think. Whether or not he'd say it when he's not just about to completely lose her... :p But I do think it would be very sad if he couldn't. Yeah, his psyche's pretty messed-up, but Rose makes him better, and I think he could have eventually managed to say it.
The thing is, Bad Wolf Bay Redux is about Ten I trying to persuade Rose to pick Ten II. That's not even subtext. He's doing that even though he personally wants her to stay with him--he's just trying to do what's best for her and Ten II. Given that he's denying himself, I just don't think "Does it need saying?" is the most honest sentiment he could have expressed. I think it's just another aspect of him denying himself for their sake, because it's not like the rest of that scene is filled with emotional honesty on his part. :p
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Date: 2009-01-27 10:15 pm (UTC)The Doctor is all about self-denial. He fears that he's a bad person, that he doesn't deserve to be happy. He wants Rose, but he thinks Ten II is somehow more capable (not sexually, but otherwise) of giving her what he thinks she wants. Whether or not that is accurate ... I think it's his perspective.
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Date: 2009-01-27 10:39 pm (UTC)From what I gather of these stories, it's not so much physical incompatibility as it is a logical lack of the biological urgency (whether it comes from long life or Looms or both) that humans have combined with his Giant Personal Issues. The no-biological-urgency thing made it easier for him to deny himself, but was not the underlying reason behind the self-denial--that would be the Giant Personal Issues.
He wants Rose, but he thinks Ten II is somehow more capable (not sexually, but otherwise) of giving her what he thinks she wants.
Yes, that's it. I'm not sure about him using "I don't deserve to be happy" as an excuse, since by that logic neither would Ten II--but the giving Rose what he thinks she wants, yes. I think it's just far more related to lifespan than sex, so I just find it jarring in fic when I read people writing that the fully Time Lord Doctor would never have had sex with her.
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Date: 2009-01-27 10:57 pm (UTC)I am a little bit in love with this post and kind of want to draw small sparkling hearts around it because yes. SO much yes.
Particularly this:
I have always had the firm belief that Ten I refrained from saying "I love you" to Rose in JE because he wanted her to pick Ten II, and I think he wanted her to pick Ten II not because he himself was incapable of giving her the kind of relationship that she could have with Ten II, but for other advantages Ten II had.
Exactly! I never believed, not for one second, that he was actually incapable of saying it. In fact, I still think that he needed to say it quite as much as she needed to hear it, if not even more so; he withheld it from her because that's the choice he made. Oh, Doctor.
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Date: 2009-01-29 06:51 am (UTC)Yes. I don't want the Doctor to be a person who never gets to tell the people he loves that he loves them. That's very sad, even if they already know. It's nice to hear it, and it's nice to say it, and to feel free to say it.
I am glad Ten II got the freedom to say it, but it does make me ache for Ten I. Damn you, RTD! XD