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Aug. 15th, 2008 10:53 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneI've been far more interested in the Olympics this year than I anticipated. Certainly more than I ever have been before. I'd watch the gymnastics, and that'd be about it. Now I've been watching pretty much everything that NBC has shown, even though sometimes I wish the commentators would just shut up.
But anyway. I've been reading this one post-JE fic, but I finally had to stop because the Doctor and Rose were...more messed up than I think they would be.
I figure the main obstacles directly post-JE to the Ten II/Rose relationship are: 1. she might not believe he's really the Doctor, 2. she's hurt that Ten I would leave her behind, and 3. she feels guilty about being with Ten II rather than Ten I, and sad that she can't be with Ten I as well. They're all legitimate issues, but I think that (in this particular fic, and a few others I've read), #1 gets blown out of proportion.
Rose and the Doctor have had a very easy relationship, in the sense that they're very attuned to each other and there's minimal awkwardness. There's some, of course, but that's pretty much always led to a closer relationship. But I think it's actually quite remarkable, how attuned to each other they are--they're nearly always on the same page (and if they don't start out that way, they get there). From the very beginning, their first real conversation, they're both upbeat and energetic. When they have fights, they both get involved. They pay attention to each other's moods, and adjust their own accordingly--Rise of the Cybermen is not the best episode of the show, but I love it for how the Doctor is with Rose: he notices right away that there's something wrong after he and Mickey find her again, and one look from her makes him stop laughing over Rose-the-dog. Even in their few awkward scenes, they're both awkward, like the mortgage conversation in The Impossible Planet, and the adorable shyness at the end of The Christmas Invasion.
Speaking of TCI, I think it's very significant to understanding how Rose might react after Journey's End. I know there are some people who weren't happy with how quickly Rose and Ten settled into their giddy relationship, who thought she should have mourned Nine longer. I do think there might have been a bit of awkwardness behind the scenes as they both get used to the Doctor being Ten rather than Nine and how that changes their relationship, but I didn't really have any problem with how easily she accepted him, mostly because of when and how she did.
He was on his way to winning her over in the Children in Need special--until the regeneration sickness interrupted his efforts. After that, he's unconscious for most of the episode. He does wake up after she asks him to help her, but it's very brief, and then he's unconscious again.
It's this unconsciousness that's the root of Rose's confusion--she's never seen the Doctor like that before. She has seen him pretty helpless, but he's always at least been awake for that; awake, and able to talk. Everyone makes a big deal of Ten's gob, but it was Nine who said "If there's one thing I can do, it's talk". And now he's not. He's not talking to her, not doing anything; she's getting no reassurance from him that he's the same man. Of course she's confused and frustrated and afraid and grieving.
Things change when he wakes up. Now she can see him act like the Doctor--maybe Nine wouldn't have tasted the blood, and maybe the swordfight was a bit ostentatious, but he was still doing something to save the planet. More than that, he knew what to do. And maybe he babbled a bit more than he did before, but she's seen him distract his enemies by talking before. Basically, he acts like the Doctor, and once she can see that, she can believe it's really him.
Which brings us to Journey's End. In post-JE fic, I've seen some people write Rose as having really changed in the alt!verse, gotten a lot harder, etc., which creates another obstacle to Doctor/Rose as they're both now different than before and have to find their way back to each other. And I think this is fine, but...in limited doses.
Because the thing about JE is that Rose and Ten I went right back to being attuned to each other. They pretty effortlessly fell into the kind of relationship they had before. They were pretty happy together in the TARDIS before the Daleks grabbed them--I love his happy grin and her "shut up". She supported him when it looked like the TARDIS was being destroyed. They both geeked out over Gwen. Maybe they've grown separately, but they haven't grown apart.
Ten II post-JE has an advantage over Ten during TCI--he's awake. He can show her with words and actions that he's still the Doctor right from the beginning, and he can reassure her when she starts to doubt. Ten II may have some parts of Donna in him, but he and Ten I have been emphatic that he's still the Doctor--just with a few new quirks. Rose can deal with that; she has before. And I don't think she would have kissed him had she not been willing to believe he's the Doctor.
They will still have those issues to face, but I think the "Rose doesn't think he's really the Doctor" thing is blown way out of proportion. I imagine that once they really start interacting with each other, they'll fall right into that easy relationship again, and Rose will be reassured. On that point, at least.
But anyway. I've been reading this one post-JE fic, but I finally had to stop because the Doctor and Rose were...more messed up than I think they would be.
I figure the main obstacles directly post-JE to the Ten II/Rose relationship are: 1. she might not believe he's really the Doctor, 2. she's hurt that Ten I would leave her behind, and 3. she feels guilty about being with Ten II rather than Ten I, and sad that she can't be with Ten I as well. They're all legitimate issues, but I think that (in this particular fic, and a few others I've read), #1 gets blown out of proportion.
Rose and the Doctor have had a very easy relationship, in the sense that they're very attuned to each other and there's minimal awkwardness. There's some, of course, but that's pretty much always led to a closer relationship. But I think it's actually quite remarkable, how attuned to each other they are--they're nearly always on the same page (and if they don't start out that way, they get there). From the very beginning, their first real conversation, they're both upbeat and energetic. When they have fights, they both get involved. They pay attention to each other's moods, and adjust their own accordingly--Rise of the Cybermen is not the best episode of the show, but I love it for how the Doctor is with Rose: he notices right away that there's something wrong after he and Mickey find her again, and one look from her makes him stop laughing over Rose-the-dog. Even in their few awkward scenes, they're both awkward, like the mortgage conversation in The Impossible Planet, and the adorable shyness at the end of The Christmas Invasion.
Speaking of TCI, I think it's very significant to understanding how Rose might react after Journey's End. I know there are some people who weren't happy with how quickly Rose and Ten settled into their giddy relationship, who thought she should have mourned Nine longer. I do think there might have been a bit of awkwardness behind the scenes as they both get used to the Doctor being Ten rather than Nine and how that changes their relationship, but I didn't really have any problem with how easily she accepted him, mostly because of when and how she did.
He was on his way to winning her over in the Children in Need special--until the regeneration sickness interrupted his efforts. After that, he's unconscious for most of the episode. He does wake up after she asks him to help her, but it's very brief, and then he's unconscious again.
It's this unconsciousness that's the root of Rose's confusion--she's never seen the Doctor like that before. She has seen him pretty helpless, but he's always at least been awake for that; awake, and able to talk. Everyone makes a big deal of Ten's gob, but it was Nine who said "If there's one thing I can do, it's talk". And now he's not. He's not talking to her, not doing anything; she's getting no reassurance from him that he's the same man. Of course she's confused and frustrated and afraid and grieving.
Things change when he wakes up. Now she can see him act like the Doctor--maybe Nine wouldn't have tasted the blood, and maybe the swordfight was a bit ostentatious, but he was still doing something to save the planet. More than that, he knew what to do. And maybe he babbled a bit more than he did before, but she's seen him distract his enemies by talking before. Basically, he acts like the Doctor, and once she can see that, she can believe it's really him.
Which brings us to Journey's End. In post-JE fic, I've seen some people write Rose as having really changed in the alt!verse, gotten a lot harder, etc., which creates another obstacle to Doctor/Rose as they're both now different than before and have to find their way back to each other. And I think this is fine, but...in limited doses.
Because the thing about JE is that Rose and Ten I went right back to being attuned to each other. They pretty effortlessly fell into the kind of relationship they had before. They were pretty happy together in the TARDIS before the Daleks grabbed them--I love his happy grin and her "shut up". She supported him when it looked like the TARDIS was being destroyed. They both geeked out over Gwen. Maybe they've grown separately, but they haven't grown apart.
Ten II post-JE has an advantage over Ten during TCI--he's awake. He can show her with words and actions that he's still the Doctor right from the beginning, and he can reassure her when she starts to doubt. Ten II may have some parts of Donna in him, but he and Ten I have been emphatic that he's still the Doctor--just with a few new quirks. Rose can deal with that; she has before. And I don't think she would have kissed him had she not been willing to believe he's the Doctor.
They will still have those issues to face, but I think the "Rose doesn't think he's really the Doctor" thing is blown way out of proportion. I imagine that once they really start interacting with each other, they'll fall right into that easy relationship again, and Rose will be reassured. On that point, at least.
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no subject
Date: 2008-08-15 07:04 pm (UTC)Maybe it's not exactly a regeneration, but it's half there — he's changed his body and some of his mannerisms, but fundamentally he's still the same bloke. I would expect that her issues would mainly stem not from anything he does, but from the knowledge that Ten I is out there.
But then again, I hate relationship arguments anyway, so I was bound to agree it gets overdone! XD
no subject
Date: 2008-08-15 07:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-15 09:17 pm (UTC)I think there's definitely going to be some legitimate issues between Ten II and Rose, but accepting he's the Doctor is something that I think was more or less taken care of by JE. I really don't think Rose would have kissed him if she saw him as someone who fundamentally wasn't the Doctor. She even *calls* him Doctor, which is why all these fics where she calls him "John" don't feel right to me.
I see #2 being the most immediate issue, with #3 something she's always going to struggle with, but if you're going with #1, you also have to go with Rose being so overwhelmed by hearing "I love you" that she'd snog someone who she didn't believe was the Doctor... right in front of the Doctor. And that's not really a characterization of Rose I like very much.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-16 01:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-16 04:30 pm (UTC)Because he is.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-16 08:07 pm (UTC)I think that how a fic is written (not always, but often), reflects the feelings and thoughts of the author. JE seemed to create a great divide through the centre of the D/R community and many people turned to writing to try to make sense of it all. That's probably why, in some fics, Rose is written as struggling to accept him; it's not Rose, but the author. Personally, IMHO, that is not Rose and as you have said, you only have to look at TCI for evidence of that. I'm loving the less-angsty fics which show her accepting TenToo quickly , but between them, they support each other.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 05:56 am (UTC)But I'm not a big fan of relationship arguments either, so my tolerance for extended angst of that sort is lower.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 05:58 am (UTC)Still, though, I really think #1 was mostly dealt with by JE (or else Rose kissing him makes no sense), so I was a bit perplexed to see it being a real issue.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 06:02 am (UTC)if you're going with #1, you also have to go with Rose being so overwhelmed by hearing "I love you" that she'd snog someone who she didn't believe was the Doctor... right in front of the Doctor. And that's not really a characterization of Rose I like very much.
Nor one I see as being very in-character to begin with. I can see her taking a bit of time to get used to him being just a bit different, but not to the point where she has to fall in love with him all over again.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 06:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 06:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-18 06:14 am (UTC)Yeah, I figured that too. I just wish some people were better able to separate their own feelings from those of the characters, because some reactions are just more plausible than others.