It's all about the love

[rynne]

Okay, just a bit of background for the new people who came from tarie's friending thing--I'm one of the mods of VENOM at FictionAlley, which is the debate and can't stand (whatever) forum. However, debate there is virtually non-existent, and the forum has pretty much been taken over by Can't Stand threads, like Can't Stand Harry/Hermione and Can't Stand Harry/Ginny and so on.

It's a lot of ship-hate--and I mean a lot. And there's just as much around LJ, too.

So I propose we lessen some of that ship-hate. Take the one ship in this fandom you really can't stand (if there's more than one, pick the one you like least), and post in your journal what is good about that ship. No sarcasm allowed--be sincere, though you don't have to pretend you don't like your favorite ship. Just try to find something you like about that ship you hate.

I'll go first.

What I like about Remus/Snape: I can see where it's coming from, and they've got things in common. Society looks down on both of them (Remus for being a werewolf, Snape for being a former Death Eater), and both men are intellectual (both seem to be the type to be comfortable in research), and both like being in control. In fact, that liking for being in control could add a bit of spice and unpredictability to their relationship. And I actually sort of like the idea that at the end of PoA, Snape let slip Remus's secret because Remus wanted him to (so Remus could go find Sirius, or something), which would make sense if they'd had some sort of relationship during PoA.

Now you try it, and spread it around!

Comments

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

I'll do my best...

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I want to, but I honestly can't think of anything good to say about my four or five least favorite ships. >_< Maybe I'll do Remus/Tonks, since I'm at least neutral on that one. ;)

[fraught.livejournal.com]

which would make sense if they'd had some sort of relationship during PoA.

Oh ew ew ew ew >.<

*sticks fingers in ears, goes lalalalalacan'thearyouuuu*

Um, I'll give it my best shot -- it's a great initiative :). Personally, I'm just awed at the people who can manage to stand the Can't Stand threads; I very nearly come into VENOM anyway and those threads seriously make me cry.

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

In the spirit of friending, I thought about this. Then, I wrote some (tangential) James/Sirius, my least favourite pairing. Not sure that was the idea! :D

Here via D_S:

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

Just a note as to why the VENOM section might have been taken over by the "Can't Stand" threads:

They don't require the dreaded template. I find it's just less of a hassle to start a "Can't Stand" thread or post in one because the template is so difficult to use, for me anyway.

Huh?

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Good idea, and good luck on it.

... and I'm not being sarcastic either

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

it will be interesting to see if it spreads. I mean, although I can appreciate what you are trying to do, some ships doth boggle the mind.
Like
O-o

It's really a tolerance issue, isnt' it?

[phoenixw.livejournal.com]

I don't get the ship hate thing. There are ships I don't enjoy, don't read and will hit the back button if I accidentally land on a story featuring one. But I don't feel the need to vent my lack of enjoyment - which comes nowhere near hatred - in a public forum. Because I adhere to the "live and let live" approach to, well, pretty much everything. If it floats your boat, fine. Have at! *I* may not love it, but you go right ahead.

Now badly-written-fic hate? That I want to vent about. But you know, even there I generally restrain myself from outright bashing, because some people enjoy work that I find boring, or badly-written. And that's fine too. Just don't make me read it, and we'll get along. We don't have to all like the same things.

Re: Here via D_S:

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sure that's definitely part of it, especially considering the R/Hr-H/Hr was pretty much out of control when it was still in the Trio forum, and therefore didn't have the template--it may have stifled the debate, but it's also stifled the snark. But one of the things that bothers me most is how many are created, like someone just has to create a new thread to rant about whatever pisses them off about fandom at the moment. And though I volunteered to mod VENOM, and am not thinking about retiring from the forum, I can't help but wince at how much hate there is there.

Re: ... and I'm not being sarcastic either

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, the ship I posted about, Remus/Snape? Only ship in the entire fandom that I hate and can't think about without wanting to burn the mere image of their names in conjuction with each other from my mind. It honestly boggles my mind how people could like it, but trying to see from their point of view doesn't hurt, and even trying to spread the love is always good. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Ahaha. You went a step further than I did! *salutes you*

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

(Here via the snitch).

I think ship hate is definitely getting old. The problem is that there's a lot of misconceptions about every ship. Personally, I think it's getting very stupid; take the R/Hr vs. H/Hr debate. Even though I ship R/Hr, I sometimes want JKR to write Harry/Ron just to end all the name calling!

Some ships I like, and why I like them:

Remus/Tonks - I like it because I just think they "click." It's not a "ship Tonks with first male you think of" thing - otherwise, I'd probably ship her with someone closer to her age. I think Remus and Tonks are a lot alike - they definitely have the same sense of humor. (Tonks is just more outspoken about showing it).

Hermione/Ron - I think that they both need to mature before they get together, but I tend to feel they have a way with one another. Ron has been mentioned getting Hermione to stop a tirade with a simple glance once or twice, and Hermione *lets* him. However, I don't know that I think it'll happen in HBP - if it does, I hope Hermione has learned that you can't go sending DADA Professors to meet Centaurs in the woods, no matter how rotten they are, by then...

Harry/Ginny - Basically, I think Ginny knows how to handle Harry. If they don't get together, they'll definitely form a friendship. I just think we've seen her getting him to stop pacing/ranting/whatever more than Hermione and Ron has. I mean, take this:

Harry: *RANT RANT RANT*

Ron: I.... well...

Hermione: Don't be a dolt.

OR

Hermione: Y-you're right.

(Her reaction seems to depend on the day and her mood).

Ginny: Lucky. you.

I call Ginny's respnse the "hint to shut up" response. And it works.

Not to say Ginny will replace Hermione and Ron - she wouldn't. However, I do think she's had more luck giving him the common sense nudge.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I sat and stared at my screen for at least ten minutes, trying to think up something good to say about Remus/Snape, and I still almost can't believe I did it. I mean, I do rather agree with you on the "ew". >.<

I'm amazed that I can manage to stand the Can't Stand threads enough to read them all (excepting the CS R/S thread, because I'm not a masochist). They don't make me want to cry, though I do get depressed at seeing ships I like being hated on...

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I stared at the screen for at least ten minutes, just to come up with what I did, and I have to say it's pretty pathetic--and you know, Remus/Snape is the one ship I think I can honestly say that I hate...though maybe not so much after having thought about it. I don't know. I just thought it was worth the effort to think up something good about the ship I hate, even if it benefits no one but me.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you did! :D

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, of course there's misconceptions about every ship (I'm a Remus/Sirius shipper, and many non-shippers seem to be under the impression that we think the hug means they're having sex. *rolls eyes*), but this isn't about misconceptions and the clearing-up thereof. Shippers do that all the time. This is about taking your least favorite ship and trying to think about how and why it works for other people--a sort of put-yourself-in-another-person's-shoes thing. Clearing up misconceptions is all well and good, but rarely is a person's dislike of a ship just based on that, and they're not likely to stop disliking the ship just because you've explained things.

Re: It's really a tolerance issue, isnt' it?

[rynne.livejournal.com]

But I don't feel the need to vent my lack of enjoyment - which comes nowhere near hatred - in a public forum.

Which is very refreshing, I assure you--but many people disagree, as evidenced by the VENOM forum and several communities on LJ, and so on. I also prefer to live and let live, and try not to let most things in fandom bother me--but I'm a mod at VENOM and have to read all those hatred threads, and it just gets tiresome. We don't have to like the same things, but I don't think trying to see the other person's point of view is a bad thing, which is why I started this.

from daily_snitch, nothing to add except

[cherusha.livejournal.com]

Newt love!

That episode was hilarious XD

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I thought about Remus/Snape, too, but I really couldn't think of anything nice to say about it, other than, "Well, I know some really good writers who love it, so there must be something to it."

I think it's a good idea. I'd been wanting to say something nice about Remus/Tonks for a while. Not that I'm going to start writing or even reading R/T. O_o I don't like ship-bashing, or character-bashing. I try to avoid it. I just don't talk much about the ships I can't stand. Except when I'm in private, with like-minded friends, of course. :)

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Brave woman! I tried that once, and chickened out. Actually, it was the attempt that set me firmly against that ship... O_o

hmm... I see what you mean

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I will admit that Lupin/Snape is an accquired taste, and the only stories that have ever sold me on the ship are the ones post OoTP, when Sirius dies, and Snape has to come to terms in seeing Remus Lupin as his own entity. In PoA, Lupin is definately an association with Sirius Black and James Potter (which is why I just can't buy the relationship in PoA, and I tend to pass on stories with that dynamic, unless I know the writer).

Also, I like my Snape/Lupin bitter: there is no love between them, nor room for finer feelings, because both men have no time for that (I'm not into the heavy kink either). But yeah, I hear you,and it's not the first pairing that I would seek out reading. I remember doing a post against the Lupin/Snape ship, and getting some real interesting responses.

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

I supppose I tend to attribute the 'hate' wars to immaturity and 'mob mentality'. At least a lot of the posts at VENOM strike me as being from young or intolerant people. I wasn't in fandom for the heyday of the 'ship wars', but we had similar, if just a tad less venomous, wars at my other fandom.

I don't 'hate' any ships, but there are several I 'despise' or just don't understand. And that's okay. What's not okay is telling people they're stupid for liking something you don't. I can see the need for the VENOM forum - everyone needs to vent on occasion - and for the most part it's the ships themselves, rather than the actual supporters/readers/authors who get bashed, but I still can't help wonder if such a forum only serves to facilitate rather than mediate. It's really a no-win situation because some people just don't have the mentality to accept or understand a different point of view or perspective.

Even on LJ, the discussions I've seen rarely go to the extent of the VENOM forum. And, I've discovered, attempts to mediate are actually unwelcomed.

Like I said, I don't hate any ships. If I had to say which one I like the least, being a R/S shipper, it would be a tie between Remus/Snape and Sirius/Snape. But I don't like any Snape ships because the Severus I interpret from the books comes across as an asexual being, and although he may be on the side of light, he's not only ugly on the exterior (from the descriptions we've been given), but, to me, he's ugly on the inside. I can agree with you that Snape and Remus have a few superficial things in common, but I don't see them as having enough in common to convince me to like the pairing.

Yet, I DO like Snape as a character. I love his snark to pieces, and I think he's much more complex than what we've been shown. And I think his interactions with the other characters are very telling. I love that he's a part of the HP universe.

In Sam's "Stealing Harry" universe, I don't perceive him in the same light I do in canon because Sam has changed who Snape has become. So yes, I like Snape in Sam's story because of that change. He's not canon!Snape anymore, and he's much more appealing in my eyes - not because he's any more physically attractive, but because the inner changes have made him (a lot!) less ugly to me. If JKR gives me reason to, I'm sure my opinions of canon!Snape will be altered as well. That remains to be seen. What I have a problem with is people attributing Alan Rickman's characteristics to Snape, and since he's an attractive man and a very good actor, I can't help wonder if a lot of the Snape-love comes from that corner.

I don't read Harry/Draco - though I don't hate it, again, I just don't understand where the notion came from - not by what I've personally interpreted from the books.

But that doesn't mean I think people who read and write the ships I choose not to are deranged, deviant, crazy, or any of that. They just see things that I don't. And that's perfectly all right. Many people think we're strange for shipping Remus and Sirius. *g*

But what I absolutely do not abide is when people object to slash ships solely because they claim homosexuality is wrong, deviant and immoral. That argument not only upsets me, but it angers me. So do people who define slash as placing two "obviously straight people" in a homosexual relationship. That kind of intolerance is... well, intolerable. And those are the types of people I avoid in fandom and in real life friendships. Unfortunately, those seem to be the types of people who also feel the need to 'spread the hate'. *sigh*

Either way, there are always going to be ships we despise/loathe/hate/dislike/avoid. It's not a matter of embracing those ships that will curb the shipping wars: it's accepting that other people are entitled to an opinion that differs from our own. And that is a never-ending battle.

Then again, trying to say a few nice things about ships we despise/loathe/hate/dislike/avoid isn't a bad thing either. (I've actually got a Harry/Draco fic and a Lucius/Hermione fic on my "To read" list)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Wow, you put a lot of thought into that. Hmmm.

At least a lot of the posts at VENOM strike me as being from young or intolerant people.

Well, a lot of them seem to be, certainly. But many of them are also well-thought out and mature, though I admit I would probably appreciate them more if they weren't so centered on disliking and debunking things. I don't think most of the people there are intolerant; it's just that they have strong opinions on a particular subject--which, again, I would probably appreciate more if those opinions weren't about disliking and debunking things.

But I don't like any Snape ships because the Severus I interpret from the books comes across as an asexual being, and although he may be on the side of light, he's not only ugly on the exterior (from the descriptions we've been given), but, to me, he's ugly on the inside.

I agree with you completely there--Snape is one of my least favorite characters, and I don't ship him with anyone either. I think that, as he is, he's not capable of sustaining a healthy relationship, nor do I think he wants to make the effort to try for one. I agree with you that he's complex, and that he may later give me a reason to like him, but for now, I don't.

I can agree with you that Snape and Remus have a few superficial things in common, but I don't see them as having enough in common to convince me to like the pairing.

Well, I don't either--that's the point. There's a multitude of reasons why I dislike Remus/Snape, and one of them is that I can't see them reconciling their differences in order to have a relationship, nor even wanting to or thinking of the idea without revulsion. My "reason to like it" was basically grasping at straws. :)

But that doesn't mean I think people who read and write the ships I choose not to are deranged, deviant, crazy, or any of that. They just see things that I don't. And that's perfectly all right. Many people think we're strange for shipping Remus and Sirius. *g*

I don't think people who like ships I don't like are deranged or anything either, and I think it's all right if people want to think I'm strange for shipping R/S. Let them--it's no skin off my nose. What bothers me is that some people do think that (I see it often enough in VENOM, and thwap for it), and without even seriously, and completely without mocking, try to understand the other side's point of view. And that's basically what this is--an effort to try and make people see the other point of view.

It's not a matter of embracing those ships that will curb the shipping wars: it's accepting that other people are entitled to an opinion that differs from our own. And that is a never-ending battle.

Yeah. *sigh* If people can't get over that in RL, they're certainly not going to be able to get over it in fandom...

via the snitch:

[firebird5.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who's participated in VENOM a bit, I think it's a pretty useful place -- in moderation. Sure, there are immature, incoherent trollish people on VENOM. But there are as many pro-shippers who can't accept that other people dislike their ship as there are anti-shippers with delusions of 'sinking' the ship. It's not really hate per se, that makes most people (at least me) post there, I'd venture to say, but annoyance borne out of encounters with these rabid shippers.

Maybe it's just me talking, but you can't really 'hate' a ship. It's like (European) football. There are hooligans, true; there are people who make racist insults at the players and at other fans; there are idiots who get drunk and violent. This demographic exists in every group, even fandom. But most people are intelligent and peaceful, both in their love and hate of certain ships. In the end, it's for fun. It's just fandom.

If we could just be sensible and remember that it's a place to vent (like SCUSA's a place to squee) and not visit each other's threads, maybe there wouldn't be as much hostility. I certainly don't visit Orange Crush or Wolfstar, so I expect them to return the favour.

Now you try it

*rises to the challenge* :)

What I like about Remus/Sirius: [Actually, I don't hate this ship that much. I hate the fact that people insist it's canon, but that's not the point here.] It would certainly address the unresolved issues between them if they were to look at each other and rediscover each other all over again -- as real people, as adults, who've changed and endured a lot since when they last knew each other. They've got a lot of (very rich) history and a lot of issues to deal with. It's a complex and nuanced relationship. If there's one thing you can't say about the ship itself (as opposed to fanfic), it's that it's cliched. Plus, are talented people just gravitating to this ship or what? Because I've never seen fanart as gorgeous as some of the R/S pieces around.

[nancyblackett.livejournal.com]

This is a very worthy endeavour, and I'll definitely do it - probably for H/Hr, to make up for the horrible things I may have said in my misguided youth. ;)

I just avoid VENOM altogether these days, it's too depressing. I understand the need to vent, and the CS H/Hr and R/Hr were always pretty active even back when they were in the Trio forum, but the sheer number of threads at the moment is just horrifying. What's the point of hating minority ships? It's just a waste of time and energy.

Re: via the snitch:

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who's participated in VENOM a bit, I think it's a pretty useful place -- in moderation. Sure, there are immature, incoherent trollish people on VENOM. But there are as many pro-shippers who can't accept that other people dislike their ship as there are anti-shippers with delusions of 'sinking' the ship. It's not really hate per se, that makes most people (at least me) post there, I'd venture to say, but annoyance borne out of encounters with these rabid shippers.

I agree, it's a useful antidote to all the squeeing that goes on in the other threads, and there really are some good, canon-focused discussions there. I like looking at stuff with a skeptical, critical eye. Even my own pet ships. (To be honest, I'm always amazed that there are so many people who refuse to read the VENOM threads for pairings they ship. At the very least, it's a good way to find out why so many people aren't sold on your ship and what their most hated cliches are, and this is tremendously useful knowledge for a writer.)

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I did this for D/G here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/psychic_serpent/51488.html).

I have to say, though, that what some folks perceive to be ship-hate others consider to be canon-defense, as in enumerating the reasons that a ship distorts canon. I don't think there's anything wrong in doing literary analysis; what I really don't understand is ship hate that mostly falls back on bashing one of the characters, or even the author. And I certainly don't think it's "on" to go onto the CS thread for a ship you sail, then go on a CS thread for a rival ship and claim that an anti-[FILL IN SHIP] argument is a pro-[FILL IN RIVAL SHIP] argument, let alone trolling forums on one site for what you think are loony pro-[FILL IN RIVAL SHIP] arguments, then going on a different site and demanding that those shippers explain/defend the theory in question. Lord help us all when it comes to this.

The reduction in ship hate is definitely overdue.

Re: via the snitch:

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Thanks for doing this, and you've got a point on shippers. But since I mod VENOM and not SCUSA, I tend to see a bit more of the hate than the love. :p

I hate the fact that people insist it's canon, but that's not the point here.

Speaking as a Wolfstar shipper, and one who knows a great many other Wolfstar shippers quite well...it's really only the immature and some of the newbies who insist that it's canon. Our ship is based on canon, and we think it has the potential to become canon, but really, very few of us actually think it is. Just to clear that up. :)

Re: via the snitch:

[rynne.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm always amazed that there are so many people who refuse to read the VENOM threads for pairings they ship. At the very least, it's a good way to find out why so many people aren't sold on your ship and what their most hated cliches are, and this is tremendously useful knowledge for a writer.

However bad it is of me, especially being a VENOM mod...I'm guilty of this myself. Remus/Sirius is my favorite ship, and I can't bring myself to look at the CS R/S thread--though I love this ship enough that I'm not sure I would be able to fairly mod the thread (which my fellow mods understand and compensate for).

I understand your point, about using it to find out why people aren't sold on the ship and what their hated cliches are...but, at least in my ship, the cliches that they hate are often the ones that I and most of my fellow shippers hate as well, and are usually just being perpetuated by young and/or inexperienced writers. If people on the CS R/S thread think that calling Sirius and Remus Siri and Remmie is stupid and so R/S is stupid...reading the thread to find that out isn't useful, because I think Siri and Remmie is stupid as well. And if I read the thread, it would just frustrate me that I'm not allowed to defend the ship.

*shrugs* Honestly, I wish so many people wouldn't read the CS threads for pairings they ship--often (though of course not always) it gets their blood up, and then I have to deal with it should they post a defense on the thread itself, or go to another thread (like an H/Hr shipper reading CS H/Hr and then going to post on CS R/Hr) and rant about "what those people are saying!" I'm not sure if you've read this thread in S&Q, but people were constantly getting angry because they were reading their ship's anti-thread, and it was just a big mess.

Hope that makes sense. :)

[rynne.livejournal.com]

What's the point of hating minority ships? It's just a waste of time and energy.

I couldn't agree more. I sometimes wish I could avoid VENOM, because I think there are far more CS threads than there needs to be. But then, I don't understand the point of actively (like posting, on LJ or elsewhere, that you hate a ship and why) hating ships--fandom's meant to be fun! And I don't know about other people, but I find discussing my favorite ship much more fun than thinking about my least favorite.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't think there's anything wrong with literary analysis; I find that interesting, and wanting to read it is actually one of the reasons I volunteered to mod VENOM in the first place. But ultimately, in a thread about ranting, many people aren't going to analyze, they're going to complain, and even if it is canon defense, it gets tiring. Maybe I'd feel better if I modded SCUSA as well, looking at all the ship-love to balance all the ship-hate, but, well, I don't really think you can have too much ship-love and cooperation between ships, hence this. :) Thanks for doing it.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's too late to join in the fun, but I thought I'd try my hand at Harry/Ginny and Snape/Squid over on my journal. Ended up writing quite a lot, and now feel queasy and smug in equal measure.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Traced back via a_t_rain.

Now, I've not tried this yet, as I honestly can't think of any ships that I outright *hate*. There are ships I won't read; most anything that combines incest and paedophilia is beyond my squickiness rating, and I honestly *cannot* think of anything good to say about Lucius/Draco. I just can't. My brain will not wrap around it.

I suppose I'm just not particularly shippy...ship-hate puzzles me, for the most part, just because the books are so very not-shippy. So I don't follow a ship in particular (hello HMS Wreckage!) and anything I write reflects that. Ships come, ships go, it's the intertwining mechanics that interest me.

Or maybe I've been influenced by a very strange group of friends over the years. ;) Who knows?

~LaReine

P.S. I'm on FA under 'La Reine Noire' or some derivation thereof. Just for information's sake.