![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rynneI'd always been meaning to talk about this sometime, if only to ramble and get my own views clear to myself (as much as they can be clear), but then I read ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
terredancer talk about her experience with it, inspired by wayfairer's post, and so I will finally come out and say...
My family--my immediate family--is not religious. My father grew up a Seventh-Day Adventist, and my mother a Catholic, because both their parents were/are (my paternal grandparents are alive, and maternal dead) very religious. My mother baptized my sisters and me Catholic, but that was partly to make her mother happy, and because she basically wanted to cover her bases in case baptizement actually did something. I have been to church (Sunday School actually, though it was Saturday to be precise, as it was always with my paternal grandparents, who are Seventh-Day Adventists and therefore go to church on Saturday) perhaps a grand total of four times in my life, all before I was ten years old, and all I can remember from those are singing hymns, stories, and feeling uncomfortable because I didn't know what anyone was talking about.
When I was just entering adolescence, and entering the throes of teenage angst, I wanted to believe in God and Jesus, and that they loved me. Alone in my room at night, I would pray for belief. I'm not surprised that I didn't get it, as I don't think a prayer without belief goes anywhere, if there's anywhere to go. I just wanted a sign somewhere that God really did exist, because, like many at that age, I felt alone in the world, like no one understood me, and I wanted someone to love me. And my mother, who's a teacher and who works at a community college/high school, told me that her nicest students are the believing Christians, which is something I've observed from my own experience--Christians have always been very nice to me.
But I never managed to really believe. I'm not sure if I'm glad of that, or sad. I do miss the feeling, or what I imagine the feeling to be, that a higher power loves me no matter what, but I like being the way I am. I'm comfortable being an atheist, and I don't know that I'll ever find my faith, or that I want to. Because quite frankly, religion scares me.
Last week, my school put on the play Beau Jest. In case you don't know, it's about a Jewish woman in love with a non-Jew, but her parents can't imagine her marrying someone who's not Jewish, and so the woman hires someone to pretend to be her Jewish boyfriend. It was a very funny play, and I enjoyed it. But that religion would be so important to people that they can't imagine, and don't want, their daughter marrying someone not of their religion...it makes me uncomfortable.
The idea that there's a higher power I know is comforting to some people. It frightens me. That I am who I am because God made me that way, rather than because I made me...that everything that happens is part of God's will and I don't have a choice in the matter, I'm just playing out a plan even when I'm not aware of it...that when I die, it's because God called me to join him rather than because of something real, tangible, an accident or an illness or whatever.... All of that scares me.
I have a Bible--a gift from my grandparents when I was very young. I've had to read parts of it for English this year, and I'd been curious about it, because before I was fifteen I didn't know what the difference was between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and because I just didn't understand what it was that made Christianity so popular. In the back of my Bible, it says that we know it's God's Word because of things like the words "God said, '...'", and because like forty different people wrote it at different times and they all agreed. And the first thing that popped into my mind as I was reading the part of 1984 where Winston and O'Brien about the Party controlling everyone's mind and memory and that if people didn't remember it happening it hadn't happened...the very first thing I thought of was that page in the Bible, where it said that because forty different men at different times agreed on something, it was true. And even before I read 1984, I couldn't imagine how the Bible was God's word just because of that. I can think of how it could easily not--Moses wrote down something that could convince people to follow him, and, throughout the ages, people continued it because obviously there was something in this account of the world that made people declare the ones who wrote it leaders. I don't know. I still haven't managed to read the whole Bible, because when it's not boring me, it's infuriating me. I can't read Genesis without wincing at how it was all right for daughters to have sex with their father so his bloodline went on. I can't read Leviticus 18:22 without snarling. I can't read Matthew without forgetting half the Apostles and mixing up the rest. I can't read any of it without being so angry that women were pretty much property back then.
But most of all, what scares me about religion is what people do in the name of it.wayfairer wrote, in her post:
When you blame the voters who chose Bush, you are completely mistaking what is happening in our country today. Bush did not win the election based on ignorance and stupidity. He won the election based on a belief system that has been determinedly advancing across the country because Christians believe it is their spiritual duty to bring people to Christ. And you cannot be successfully brought to Christ until you also commit to serving Christ. You cannot successfully serve Christ unless you do his will. And it is Christ's will that Bush win re-election. Do you see the pattern at work here???
And that scares the shit out of me. Spiritual duty to bring people to Christ? That scares me. I don't want to go to Christ. Millions of non-Christian people don't want to go to Christ. We're happy the way we are. Why is it your spiritual duty to bring me to Christ if I don't want to go? The God that all these people want me to believe in is supposedly kind, just, forgiving, etc. He loves me the way I am, apparently, because he made me that way. If he made me this way, didn't he make me to disbelieve in him too? Or have I been seduced by the Devil just by living the way I do, which I try to make as moral as I can? I don't believe in Heaven, and I don't believe in Hell. If I believe that there's anything after death, it's oblivion. I don't know. I just know that I don't like the idea of people thinking they have a mission to convert me to Christianity. Can't we be good people without being Christians?
And how fervent some people can get about their religions...that scares me too. Last year in English, we wrote persuasive essays, trying to get people to agree with us on one position or another. I wrote mine on gay marriage. Someone in my class wrote hers on why everyone should believe in God. How important religion is to people...I don't understand it. I understand that it's true, because that's very obvious, and I can intellectually understand why, but it's like conservatism. I understand without understanding how people can be conservative, and I understand without understanding how religion can be the be-all and end-all of a person's life. If that makes any sense.
I think I'm rambling now, and I'm not sure if I have anything else to say, so I'll stop. I'm an atheist, and I'm happy that way.
I hope this doesn't offend any of you. I've tried to phrase it so it isn't, but if it does offend you, know that no offense is meant. And I know that some of you are religious, and I respect that and you very much, and how you may be different from what I've talked about. But none of you scare me, so that's all right.
And in any case, it is a relief to have finally written this stuff down...
terredancer talk about her experience with it, inspired by wayfairer's post, and so I will finally come out and say...My family--my immediate family--is not religious. My father grew up a Seventh-Day Adventist, and my mother a Catholic, because both their parents were/are (my paternal grandparents are alive, and maternal dead) very religious. My mother baptized my sisters and me Catholic, but that was partly to make her mother happy, and because she basically wanted to cover her bases in case baptizement actually did something. I have been to church (Sunday School actually, though it was Saturday to be precise, as it was always with my paternal grandparents, who are Seventh-Day Adventists and therefore go to church on Saturday) perhaps a grand total of four times in my life, all before I was ten years old, and all I can remember from those are singing hymns, stories, and feeling uncomfortable because I didn't know what anyone was talking about.
When I was just entering adolescence, and entering the throes of teenage angst, I wanted to believe in God and Jesus, and that they loved me. Alone in my room at night, I would pray for belief. I'm not surprised that I didn't get it, as I don't think a prayer without belief goes anywhere, if there's anywhere to go. I just wanted a sign somewhere that God really did exist, because, like many at that age, I felt alone in the world, like no one understood me, and I wanted someone to love me. And my mother, who's a teacher and who works at a community college/high school, told me that her nicest students are the believing Christians, which is something I've observed from my own experience--Christians have always been very nice to me.
But I never managed to really believe. I'm not sure if I'm glad of that, or sad. I do miss the feeling, or what I imagine the feeling to be, that a higher power loves me no matter what, but I like being the way I am. I'm comfortable being an atheist, and I don't know that I'll ever find my faith, or that I want to. Because quite frankly, religion scares me.
Last week, my school put on the play Beau Jest. In case you don't know, it's about a Jewish woman in love with a non-Jew, but her parents can't imagine her marrying someone who's not Jewish, and so the woman hires someone to pretend to be her Jewish boyfriend. It was a very funny play, and I enjoyed it. But that religion would be so important to people that they can't imagine, and don't want, their daughter marrying someone not of their religion...it makes me uncomfortable.
The idea that there's a higher power I know is comforting to some people. It frightens me. That I am who I am because God made me that way, rather than because I made me...that everything that happens is part of God's will and I don't have a choice in the matter, I'm just playing out a plan even when I'm not aware of it...that when I die, it's because God called me to join him rather than because of something real, tangible, an accident or an illness or whatever.... All of that scares me.
I have a Bible--a gift from my grandparents when I was very young. I've had to read parts of it for English this year, and I'd been curious about it, because before I was fifteen I didn't know what the difference was between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and because I just didn't understand what it was that made Christianity so popular. In the back of my Bible, it says that we know it's God's Word because of things like the words "God said, '...'", and because like forty different people wrote it at different times and they all agreed. And the first thing that popped into my mind as I was reading the part of 1984 where Winston and O'Brien about the Party controlling everyone's mind and memory and that if people didn't remember it happening it hadn't happened...the very first thing I thought of was that page in the Bible, where it said that because forty different men at different times agreed on something, it was true. And even before I read 1984, I couldn't imagine how the Bible was God's word just because of that. I can think of how it could easily not--Moses wrote down something that could convince people to follow him, and, throughout the ages, people continued it because obviously there was something in this account of the world that made people declare the ones who wrote it leaders. I don't know. I still haven't managed to read the whole Bible, because when it's not boring me, it's infuriating me. I can't read Genesis without wincing at how it was all right for daughters to have sex with their father so his bloodline went on. I can't read Leviticus 18:22 without snarling. I can't read Matthew without forgetting half the Apostles and mixing up the rest. I can't read any of it without being so angry that women were pretty much property back then.
But most of all, what scares me about religion is what people do in the name of it.
wayfairer wrote, in her post:When you blame the voters who chose Bush, you are completely mistaking what is happening in our country today. Bush did not win the election based on ignorance and stupidity. He won the election based on a belief system that has been determinedly advancing across the country because Christians believe it is their spiritual duty to bring people to Christ. And you cannot be successfully brought to Christ until you also commit to serving Christ. You cannot successfully serve Christ unless you do his will. And it is Christ's will that Bush win re-election. Do you see the pattern at work here???
And that scares the shit out of me. Spiritual duty to bring people to Christ? That scares me. I don't want to go to Christ. Millions of non-Christian people don't want to go to Christ. We're happy the way we are. Why is it your spiritual duty to bring me to Christ if I don't want to go? The God that all these people want me to believe in is supposedly kind, just, forgiving, etc. He loves me the way I am, apparently, because he made me that way. If he made me this way, didn't he make me to disbelieve in him too? Or have I been seduced by the Devil just by living the way I do, which I try to make as moral as I can? I don't believe in Heaven, and I don't believe in Hell. If I believe that there's anything after death, it's oblivion. I don't know. I just know that I don't like the idea of people thinking they have a mission to convert me to Christianity. Can't we be good people without being Christians?
And how fervent some people can get about their religions...that scares me too. Last year in English, we wrote persuasive essays, trying to get people to agree with us on one position or another. I wrote mine on gay marriage. Someone in my class wrote hers on why everyone should believe in God. How important religion is to people...I don't understand it. I understand that it's true, because that's very obvious, and I can intellectually understand why, but it's like conservatism. I understand without understanding how people can be conservative, and I understand without understanding how religion can be the be-all and end-all of a person's life. If that makes any sense.
I think I'm rambling now, and I'm not sure if I have anything else to say, so I'll stop. I'm an atheist, and I'm happy that way.
I hope this doesn't offend any of you. I've tried to phrase it so it isn't, but if it does offend you, know that no offense is meant. And I know that some of you are religious, and I respect that and you very much, and how you may be different from what I've talked about. But none of you scare me, so that's all right.
And in any case, it is a relief to have finally written this stuff down...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:04 pm (UTC)That is my number one thing against religion. I'm not religious either, but I don't care if other people are. That is, until they start trying to convert me. And then it's hell for them because I do not take that kindly.
I realize they think they're doing me a great thing, but frankly, to a non-believer, whether or not I'm going to heaven is of no consequence.
And the thing that angers me most is when people came up to me telling me it was "God's will" after a daughter of a close family friend died. Quite frankly, that was the last thing I ever wanted to hear. And that's the first thing that turns me off about the religion.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:12 pm (UTC)A lot of that post I wrote was as much about how I was always keenly aware that I didn't belong and that I was the Enemy without knowing why as it was about my personal faith. And when I read that, I cried because it finally made sense out of something I'd been struggling with most of my life. Because I do believe in a higher power, I do believe I'm guided by that power, but it's more like a highly advanced teacher than anything. It's definitely not their idea of God at all.
And those people that she described... I'm surrounded by them. My once best friend was one of them.
And y'know, no matter what opinion you hold, I would never try to change you. And much of that makes sense.
Can't we be good people without being Christians?
I certainly hope so. Because otherwise, from age 7 on, there would have been no hope for me. Whatsoever. *grin*
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:20 pm (UTC)That said, I am slightly put out by the general "I am right and you are wrong and damned" attitude that even the most laid back religious sorts (of some religions) have. I understand it comes with the faith, but it's still sort of offensive.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:39 pm (UTC)But I'm probably just not offended because I'm not Christian and it's directly against my religion to do the psycho recruiting. There are rules about Jews even accepting those who come forward and say they wanna convert.
Meanwhile, I don't understand Jesus or the New Testament. And I don't understand the cult of "you don't agree with me? You must've been seduced by The Devil!" But after seeing some of 'em in action, I'm okay with not understanding it.
Plus it must be so useless to go on conversion crusades. I mean, if Some Guy doesn't want to be a Christian but you hound him into becoming one, what kind of Christian is he going to be anyway?
(And how many times has Bush talked about God speaking through him? What a load of nonsense. If God and Jesus are so loving and blahblahblah, then why exactly would they be instructing someone to start a war and be generally intolerant of humans that God created? Unless God has a huge vindictive streak...)
I'm happy to sit quietly in my corner of Jewish Agnosticism. And, quite frankly, what I get out of my religion doesn't involve you or you or you or you. It involves me and whatever piece of God I may or may not believe in.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:52 pm (UTC)I have said that very thing to so many Christians that it's nice to see someone else thinking the same way.
I was raised Christian. I went through infant baptism in the Methodist church and went through the confirmation that they ask of their preteen population. I didn't believe any of it, but I did it anyway. In third grade I started wondering about everything that I had been believing just because mommy and daddy taught me to, but it's hard to question religion when your entire family is steadfast Christian and you're just a little voice.
I'm Pagan, or so I say, but it's really an awkward situation because I feel as if something's there but I don't really have a grasp on what. So I just go from day to day with little to no religion in my life until I'm faced with it. I go to church when my parents ask me to, but I still can't see the Bible as more than a book. Recently they've switched churches and they want me to transfer my membership with them. But they would be switching their denomination, which could mean rebaptism and I feel as if going through with such a thing now would be the greatest lie I've ever told without telling.
Religion, as it appears so often every day, scares me as well. I once heard someone call Bush "God's candidate" and I thought I was going to cry. After all, if God loves me as he made me, then he not only loves me as he made me a "disbeliever" but he also loves me as he made me gay as well.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 08:59 pm (UTC)directly against my religion to do the psycho recruiting.
That is what every religion should teach.
I mean, if Some Guy doesn't want to be a Christian but you hound him into becoming one, what kind of Christian is he going to be anyway?
Exactly!!!
If God and Jesus are so loving and blahblahblah, then why exactly would they be instructing someone to start a war and be generally intolerant of humans that God created?
Amen to that.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 09:00 pm (UTC)The Bible? Sure, maybe God was speaking through some of these people, but that still doesn't change the fact that those were people 2000 years ago who interpreted god's words and put in their society's view on right and wrong at the time.
And guess what? Society has changed since then.
Then it was perfectly moral to have multiple wives, women were inferior, homosexuality was generally not considered a good thing (which is obvious when you think about it, because then marriage was all about producing children) but what people need to do is to seperate the religion and faith part from the culture and society part. Today it's perfectly possible to have modern or progressive morals and standards while still be a good christian and believe in God.
However, my background and my whole country's background in this is maybe a bit weird :P we're a very homogenous society. And um, if you ask us whether we are christian 80% will say yes. If you ask us whether we believe in god, 30% will say yes. And I'm one of those 50% and perfectly happy with it;) Religion is just such a huge part of our background and culture, everyone has christmas, all children get baptised and then confirmed when they're 14, it's just a custom, but apart from that? Nothing much, really.
/my two cents :P
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 09:29 pm (UTC)For the first thirteen years of my life I was raised as a Reform Jew, but I always saw that as more of a cultural thing than a religious thing. I had a Bat Mitzvah, and I'm still glad I did, even though I now identify as an atheist religiously, and a New Yorker culturally. ;)
I don't like the idea of a master plan. I don't like the idea that everything we do is orchestrated by some faceless superpower. I think chaos is infinitely more beautiful and the fact that everything that exists today may well be the result of a completely unlikely accident is just thrilling.
I think we should all be allowed to believe whatever feels right to us. We should not be allowed to impose our views upon others because while the Judeo-Christian Bible says one thing, the Qu'ran says another, and Buddha says another, and the Hindu gods say another, and Wiccans believe another thing, etc., and their belief is not more or less important than my disbelief.
Belief doesn't make a person good anymore than disbelief or belief in the "wrong" thing makes a person bad. How can it when more murder has been carried out in the name of some deity or another than for any other reason? The people who commit these atrocities may believe they are carrying out their god's will, but give me a break. Murder is murder. And if there is a god and if this god really does require these blood-baths...he or she doesn't deserve my worship.
And...anyway...how can free will exist if everything is part of some master plan? It doesn't make any sense to me and neither does the idea of an omnipotent god who is also all-loving, and neither does the idea that one may go against one's prophet's teachings and one's commandments in order to bring non-believers closer to your personal god. How does that work??
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 02:42 am (UTC)I don't know what I believe. I want to believe because those who do seem (as a whole) normal, rational, friendly people. And they all seem so much more at peace than I do. Little things don't bother them so much and they just seem comfortable.
But it's the little things that get me--if God made me who I am and things happen because of His Will, than why am I questioning His presence? And when I do go to church, they do seem hell-bent on converting everyone. That's their mentality, though. I mean, if you've been raised like that forever and have never thought to question it, you wouldn't consider it wrong and you wouldn't understand why other people would be so against it.
What's scary is that if there actually is a Hell, I'm probably going there, whether I believe in it or not. If I believe in God and try to serve Him as best I can and trust in Him wholly, I have peace in my life, have wonderful supporting friends and die and go to Heaven. If I don't, I'm nervous, irritable and sad all the time and when I die, it's either over for me completely or I go to Hell.
Depressing, isn't it?
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 05:30 am (UTC)That being said, I do think there's more to life than what we see and know. I've no idea what that 'more' is, and don't care, really. I try to live my life in the best way I know how and be a decent human being. I've participated in different religions from Christianity to Wicca and found much that is right and true in all of them, but none of them really works for me.
One of the problems I see with Christianity is the idea that it is the duty of Christians to convert others. In times past, this led to forced conversions or such silliness as driving a bunch of people through a running stream while a priest stood upstream blessing the water - that was 'baptism.' Today, it leads to intolerance and scary fundamentalism.
I mean, if there's one God, and he's ours, then whatever you other people are worshipping must be demons. Monotheism combined with the drive to convert is a Bad Thing.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 05:51 am (UTC)He had a lot of things to say on the subjects you raised, but this quote sort of jumped out at me (it's from a book on the Judeo-Christian tradition as a mythology):
Coming in kind of randomly, here...
Date: 2004-11-10 12:36 pm (UTC)It scares me, too. I don't and can't (and on some level, won't) believe in destiny, or some higher being making all the decisions.
I've got no strings, and I don't want them. And I am a somewhat spiritual (but not Christian) person. It's something there in the background, but it by no means influences all my life decisions. Or even most of them. I'd sooner fumble my way through and fuck 99% of things up than imagine that I'm being led along by some sort of higher power.
And I rather agree with
*dumps entire religious history in your lap*
Date: 2004-11-10 12:56 pm (UTC)I tried, when I was younger, to be religious, but it never worked. I'd go to church camp, or youth group, or whatever, and people would say things that made sense to everyone but me. "Can you feel the spirit here?" No. I never once could. I could see that other people felt it, which is part of why I still believe everything, but it never once happened for me. "Don't you want to spend eternity in heaven, worshipping?" Hell no. I don't want eternity. Eternity scares me. I can't wrap my mind around it. I want to just live, and then nothing. Like, falling asleep, and never dreaming, and never waking up. I don't want eternity anywhere. "You've just been saved. Do you feel different?" Well, I feel stupid that I don't feel different in any of the ways you want me to, does that count?
We had some lesson in Sunday school, when I was very little, about how Jesus loved everyone so much that he would save everyone. And yeah, that seemed great, until I got older and they added in the small print: he'll only save you if you do what his dad says.
That never made sense. If it was up to me, everyone would be saved. Good, bad, Christian or no, no one would be going to hell. If it was really up to me, there would be no heaven, either, but I never got the point of going through all Jesus went through if he wasn't going to save everyone. Yeah, everyone: Hitler and bin Laden and Bush and rapists and child abusers and everyone. I would spend eternity in hell if everyone else got heaven, but. *snort* That won't happen.
I was raised Episcopalean, which is just the American version of the Church of England, and apparently we believe in predestination. I had no idea that we thought that. Anyway, we had a sermon on it, and it was obviously aimed at the people who were saved. "You're not inherently better than anyone else. God doesn't have favourites, but you were just chosen. There's nothing you can do that will make God unchose you. There's nothing bad enough for him to unchose you." I heard that, and everything sort of clicked. If you look at that, and apply it all the other way: I'm not an inherently bad person. God doesn't have favourites, but he just didn't pick me. There's nothing I can do to make him chose me. There's nothing good enough I can do to make him want me.
So I pretty much gave up, at that. I'd been missing out on things I wanted to do (all stuff that I shouldn't have been doing at 16 anyway, really, but still. I didn't drink, didn't sneak out, didn't dress the way I wanted, didn't get anything tattooed or pierced or pretty much do any of the things that I wanted to do, all because God said that I shouldn't.) because of religion for too long, and, since I'm apparently going to hell, with no two ways around it, I just quit trying. I'm stubborn enough that I won't find a different religion, or even denomination. I'll have to fix my issues with being Episcopal, or never have anything.
And that's not even touching on free will. "Oh, here, do whatever you want! But, if you don't play by my rules, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL." Nice. Very nice.
I loved Paradise Lost, though. I was still trying to be Christian when we read it, and it scared me, at the time, how much sense it made. I was totally on Satan's side. Everything he said was right, to me.
*stops, before the comment gets longer and explodes all over your journal*
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 01:29 pm (UTC)I am a lapsed Catholic. I have never tried to convert anyone, and have always respected the rights of others, especially when it comes to religion /beliefs. I kind of know how you feel, though. Those same “Obsessive-compulsive converters” nag me too; only it is to tell me that Catholicism is a cult and that I need to seek out a true religion. Not all Christians are like that, but the many who are tend to be loud and obnoxious and make their presence known in annoying, pushy ways.
don't know that I'll ever find my faith, or that I want to. Because quite frankly, religion scares me.
Faith and religion are two separate things. In my opinion, faith is very important. Religion is not.
Faith: A set of principles or beliefs.
Religion: A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader; a cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
My general point: Fuck religion. Have faith.
Doesn’t matter what you have faith in, as long as you have it in something. That’s my take on it, at least.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 02:18 pm (UTC)Speaking of the whole God thing... I believe there's something beyond what we see and hear and such, but I don't know if I would call it "God" in the traditional sense. More like, I think there's something connecting all of humanity--maybe other life too, I don't know--on a "spiritual" (if you want to use that word) level, but I don't think there's a plan, and I think we forge our own destinies.
Religion does make some people do some pretty scary things, and what's scary about it to me is I feel like I can't really get mad at them or condemn them because... they're just trying to do what they think is right, aren't they? Which is tricky because whenever I try to bring up this point of view to people someone ALWAYS, without fail, says "well what about Hitler?" And... I mean, I don't want to say "Hitler was not a bad person," because, well, duh. So I usually rationalize about how he probably was doing it more for his own advancement than any other reason, or rather, he didn't care if what he was doing was moral or not, which in my view is what does make someone a bad person: if s/he knows something is wrong and does it anyway.
As for the whole mixed-messages thing... well, really, most Christians I've run into believe EITHER that God loves you no matter what you do, OR that God loves you if you're good, OR that God loves you or doesn't love you based on some arbitrary decision made before the beginning of time. So yes, those are contradictory, but generally people won't contradict themselves... does that make sense?
Anywho, I love reading rants about religion (dunno why)... I should write one one of these days. Hmm.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 02:49 pm (UTC)I go to a Christian school, and I don't like it because my bible teacher tries to force ideas down my throat. I'm sorry that I think a person can go to Heaven for just believing; that's my personal belief and you can't change that. I want to tell him off every day because he leaves no room for different interpretations.
I understand the Christians you're talking about. I try not to be one of them.
If I could have voted in the election, I would have voted for Bush, not because of religion, but because I just didn't like Kerry. I think Bush isn't any more of a Christian than Kerry, and that's kind of a ridiculous assumption about our country.
I don't believe that I'm a puppet of God. I believe I can make my own choices. I don't ever want to force my beliefs on someone else.
Just thought I would put my two cents in. xo, H
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 04:14 pm (UTC)I understand why people go on these random recruiting crusades, even if the reason is entirely ridiculous. The New Testament says to "go forth and spread the Good News". Obviously some born-agains have a different translation of the Bible, which says "go annoy the shit out of non-Christians until they finally convert just so you'll shut the hell up". >_> People who misinterpret the Bible bug me.
As for religion in general, I was raised Catholic. Only, badly. I suppose I was the only child to beg my mom to take me to church, because all of my friends went every Sunday and they would tell me the Bible stories they heard. So I was like... OMGTHEYTELLSTORIES!!!! So my mom would take me, then she got sick of getting up early and just bought me a children's Bible. I got hooked. >_> If nothing else, religion has to be admired as the greatest hoax of all time. Besides -- I've decided that something that tries to tell people to just be nice to each other for a while can't be wholly bad.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:09 pm (UTC)I'm surrounded by people like that too. I'm not in the South, so they're not Southern Baptist or anything, but I do know people who feel that way about their religion. One of my friends, who I started drifting away from once I realized that she believes homosexuality is wrong because God says so, once took me to one of her church's events, basically a "bring your friend so we can convert them!" thing. Her church is one of the hellfire and damnation types, and I didn't understand how people could love a god who would throw in hell anyone who didn't agree with him. It bothered me then, and it bothers me now.
I want to be a good person because I think it's a good thing to do, not because I think it will get me into heaven. And if there's any higher power at all with a sense of justice, I think that intention would count. There might be hope for us yet. *g*
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:13 pm (UTC)I'm obviously not a fan of the Bible, for all that I know I'll have to read more of it if I continue in my chosen major of English.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-10 08:30 pm (UTC)Supposedly it's because they get to go to God's side and be happy and merry forever. I, for one, have never understood how the death of a three year old angel is the work of a supposed benevolent god.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-12 10:42 am (UTC)That's one of the beauties of the internet, I suppose. A friend of my wife's is a sociologist who specializes in the web and electronic communication. He says that, if you're one in a million, there are six thousand more of you out there somewhere. And, with the marvels of contemporary communication, you stand a chance of actually finding them....
no subject
Date: 2004-11-12 10:48 am (UTC)http://www.jcf.org/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577312023/
Also, I'd be willing to bet that you can find his very popular exploration of religion as mythology with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth (http://www.jcf.org/works.php?id=237), at the library. It's a video and a book, and a wonderful experience in either medium.